IMO other than the Microsoft IP issue, I think the biggest thing that has shifted since this acquisition was first in the works is Claude Code has absolutely exploded. Forking an IDE and all the expense that comes with that feels like a waste of effort, considering the number of free/open source CLI agentic tools that are out there.
Let's review the current state of things:
- Terminal CLI agents are several orders of magnitude less $$$ to develop than forking an entire IDE.
- CC is dead simple to onboard (use whatever IDE you're using now, with a simple extension for some UX improvements).
- Anthropic is free to aggressively undercut their own API margins (and middlemen like Cursor) in exchange for more predictable subscription revenue + training data access.
What does Cursor/Windsurf offer over VS Code + CC?
- Tab completion model (Cursor's remaining moat)
- Some UI niceties like "add selection to chat", and etc.
Personally I think this is a harbinger of where things are going. Cursor was fastest to $900M ARR and IMO will be fastest back down again.
Agreed on everything. Just to add, not only anthropic is offering CC at like a 500% loss, they restricted sonnet/opus 4 access to windsurf, and jacked up their enterprise deal to Cursor. The increase in price was so big that it forced cursor to make that disastrous downgrade to their plans.
I think only way Cursor and other UX wrappers still win is if on device models or at least open source models catch up in the next 2 years. Then i can see a big push for UX if models are truly a commodity. But as long as claude is much better then yes they hold all the cards. (And don't have a bigger company to have a civil war with like openai)
The way I am doing the math with my Max subscription and assuming DeepSeek API prices, it is still x5 times cheaper. So either DeepSeek is losing money (unlikely) or Anthropic is losing lots of money (more likely). Grok kinda confirms my suspicions. Assuming DeepSeek prices, I've probably spent north of $100 of Grok compute. I didn't pay Grok or Twitter a single cent. $100 is a lot of loss for a single user.
This is what I don’t get about the cost being reported by Claude code. At work I use it against our AWS Bedrock instance, and most sessions will say 15/20 dollars and I’ll have multiple agents running. So I can easily spend 60 bucks a day in reported cost. Our AWS Bedrock bill is only a small fraction of that? Why would you over charge on direct usage of your API?
I'm also curious about this. Claude Code feels very expensive to me, but at the same time I don't have much perspective (nothing to compare it to, really, other than Codex or other agent editors I guess. And CC is way better so likely worth the extra money anyway)
Pretty easy to hit $100 an hour using Opus on API credits. The model providers are heavily subsidized, the datacenters appear to be too. If you look at the Coreweave stuff and the private datacenters it starts looking like the telecom bubble. Even Meta is looking to finance datacenter expansion - https://www.reuters.com/business/meta-seeks-29-billion-priva...
The reason they are talking about building new nuclear power plants in the US isn't just for a few training runs, its for inference. At scale the AI tools are going to be extremely expensive.
Also note China produces twice as much electricity as the United States. Software development and agent demand is going to be competitive across industries. You may think, oh I can just use a few hours of this a day and I got a week of work done (happens to me some days), but you are going to end up needing to match what your competitors are doing - not what you got comfortable with. This is the recurring trap of new technology (no capitalism required.)
There is a danger to independent developers becoming reliant on models. $100-$200 is a customer acquisition cost giveaway. The state of the art models probably will end up costing hourly what a human developer costs. There is also the speed and batching part. How willing is the developer to, for example, get 50% off but maybe wait twice as long for the output. Hopefully the good dev models end up only costing $1000-$2000 a month in a year. At least that will be more accessible.
Somewhere in the future these good models will run on device and just cost the price of your hardware. Will it be the AGI models? We will find out.
I wonder how this comment will age, will look back at it in 5 or 10 years.
Claude Code pro is ~$20USD/ month and is nearly enough for someone like me who can’t use it at work and is just playing around with it after work. I’m loving it.
Can you give me an idea of how much interaction would be $50-$100 per day? Like are you pretty constantly in a back and forth with CC? And if you wouldn’t mind, any chance you can give me an idea of productivity gains pre/post LLM?
Yes, a lot of usage, I’d guess top 10% among my peers. I do 6-10hrs of constant iterating across mid-size codebases of 750k tokens. CC is set to use Opus by default, which further drives up costs.
Estimating productivity gains is a flame war I don’t want to start, but as a signal: if the CC Max plan goes up 10x in price, I’m still keeping my subscription.
I maintain top-tier subscription to every frontier service (~$1k/mo) and throughout the week spend multiple hours with each of Cursor, Amp, Augment, Windsurf, Codex CLI, Gemini CLI, but keep on defaulting to Claude Code.
I am curious what kind of development you’re doing and where your projects fall on the fast iteration<->correctness curve (no judgment). I’ve used CC Pro for a few weeks now and I will keep it, it’s fantastically useful for some things, but it has wasted more of my time than it saved when I’ve experimented with giving it harder tasks.
The project is just a web backend. I give Claude Code grunt work tasks. Things like "make X operation also return Y data" or "create Z new model + CRUD operations". Also asking it to implement well-known patterns like denouncing or caching for an existing operation works well.
My app builds and runs fine on Termux, so my CLAUDE.md says to always run unit tests after making changes. So I punch in a request, close my phone for a bit, then check back later and review the diff. Usually takes one or two follow-up asks to get right, but since it always builds and passes tests, I never get complete garbage back.
There are some tasks that I never give it. Most of that is just intuition. Anything I need to understand deeply or care about the implementation of I do myself. And the app was originally hand-built by me, which I think is important - I would not trust CC to design the entire thing from scratch. It's much easier to review changes when you understand the overall architecture deeply.
Unless you're getting paid for your commute, you're just giving your employer free productivity. I would recommend doing literally anything else with that time. Read a book, maybe.
You can tell Claude Code to use opus using /model and then it doesn't fall back to Sonnet btw. I am on the $100 plan and I hit rate-limits every now and then, but not enough to warrant using Sonnet instead of Opus.
Seems like the survival strategy for cursor would be to develop their own frontier coding model. Maybe they can leverage the data from their still somewhat significant lead in the space to make a solid effort.
I don’t think that’s a viable strategy. It is very very hard and not many people can do it. Just look at how much Meta is paying to poach the few people in the world capable of training a next gen frontier model.
The basic concept plus a lot of money spent on compute and training data gets you pretraining. After that to get a really good model there’s a lot more fine-tuning / RL steps that companies are pretty secretive about. That is where the “smart decisions” and knowledge gained by training previous generations of sota models comes in.
We’d probably see more companies training their own models if it was cheaper, for sure. Maybe some of them would do very well. But even having a lot of money to throw at this doesn’t guarantee success, e.g. Meta’s Llama 4 was a big disappointment.
That said, it’s not impossible to catch up to close to state-of-the-art, as Deepseek showed.
I'd recommend reading some of the papers on what it takes to actually train a proper foundation model, such as the Llama 3 Herd of Models paper. It is a deeply sophisticated process.
Coding startups also try to fine-tune OSS models to their own ends. But this is also very difficult, and usually just done as a cost optimization, not as a way to get better functionality.
Their base is $20/mth. That would equal 3.75M people paying a sub to Cursor.
If literally everyone is on their $200/mth plan, then that would be 375K paid users.
There’s 50M VS Code + VS users (May 2025). [1] 7% of all VS Code users having switched to Cursor does not match my personal circle of developers. 0.7% . . . Maybe? But, that would be if everyone using Cursor were paying $200/month.
Seems impossibly high, especially given the number of other AI subscription options as well.
The $20/month cursor sub is heavily limited though, for basic casual usage that's fine but you VERY soon run into its limits when working at any speed.
- Forking VSCode is very easy; you can do it in 1 hour.
- Anthropic doesn't use the inputs for training.
- Cursor doesn't have $900M ARR. That was the raise. Their ARR is ~$500m [1].
- Claude Code already support the niceties, including "add selection to chat", accessing IDE's realtime warnings and errors (built-in tool 'ideDiagnostics'), and using IDE's native diff viewer for reviewing the edits.
Claude Code is just proving that coding agents can be successful. The interface isn’t magic, it just fits the model and integrates with a system in all the right ways. The Anthropic team for that product is very small comparatively (their most prolific contributor is Claude), and I think it’s more of a technology proof than a core competency - it’s a great API $ business lever, but there’s no reason for them to try and win the “agentic coding UI” market. Unless Generative AI flops everywhere else, these markets will continue to emerge and need focus. The Windsurf kerfuffle is further proof that OpenAI doesn’t see the market as must-win for a frontier model shop.
And so I’d say this isn’t a harbinger of the death of Cursor, instead proof that there’s a future in the market they were just recently winning.
Cursor see it coming - it's why they're moving to the web and mobile[0]
The bigger issue is the advantage Anthropic, Google and OpenAI have in developing and deploying their own models. It wasn't that long ago that Cursor was reading 50 lines of code at a time to save on token costs. Anthropic just came out and yolo'd the context window because they could afford to, and it blew everything else away.
Cursor could release a cli tomorrow but it wouldn't help them compete when Anthropic and Google can always be multiples cheaper
> Anthropic just came out and yolo'd the context window because they could afford to
I don’t think this is true at all. The reason CC is so good is that they’re very deliberate about what goes in the context. CC often spends ages reading 5 LOC snippets, but afterwards it only has relevant stuff in context.
Heard a lot of this context bs parroted all over HN, don't buy it. If simply increasing context size can solve problem, Gemini would be the best model for everything.
I think this is an interesting and cool direction for Cursor to be going in and I don't doubt something like this is the future. But I have my doubts whether it will save them in the short/medium term:
- AI is not good enough yet to abandon the traditional IDE experierence if you're doing anything non-trivial. Hard finding use cases for this right now.
- There's no moat here. There are already a dozen "Claude Code UI" OSS projects with similar basic functionality.
Does anyone have a comparison between this and OpenAI Codex? I find OpenAI's thing really good actually (vastly better workflow that Windsurf). Maybe I am missing out however.
Some excellent points. On “add selection to chat”, I just want to add that the Claude Code VS code extension automatically passes the current selection to the model. :)
I am genuinely curious if any Cursor or Windsurf users who have also tried Claude Code could speak to why they prefer the IDE-fork tools? I’ve only ever used Claude Code myself - what am I missing?
Cursor's tab completion model is legitimately fantastic and for many people is worth the entire $20 subscription. Lint fixes or syntax-level refactors are guessed and executed instantly with TAB with close to 100% accuracy. This is their final moat IMO, if Copilot manages to bring their tab completion up to near parity, very little reason to use Cursor.
Idk. When you're doing something it really gets it's super nice, but it's also off a lot of times and it's IMO super distracting when it constantly pop up. No way to explicitly request it instead - other than toggling, which seems to also turn off context/edit tracking, because after toggling on it does not suggest anything until you make some edits.
While Zed's model is not as good the UI is so much better IMO.
Just to offer a different perspective, I use Cursor at work and, coming from emacs (which I still use) with copilot completions only when I request them with a shortcut, Cursor’s behavior drives me crazy.
It's quite interesting how little the Cursor power users use tab. Majority of the posts are some insane number of agent edits and close to (or exactly) 0 tabs.
At my company we have an enterprise subscription and we're also all allowed to see the analytics for the entire company. Last I checked, I was literally the number one user of Tab and middle of the pack for agent.
It's interesting when I see videos or reddit posts about cursor and people getting rate limited and being super angry. In my experience tab is the number one feature, and I feel like most people using agent are probably overusing it tasks that would honestly take less time to do myself or using models way smarter than they need to be for the task at hand.
I'd like to ask the opposite question: why do people prefer command line tools? I tried both and I prefer working in IDE. The main reason is that I don't trust the LLMs too much and I like to see and potentially quickly edit the changes they make. With an IDE, I can iterate much faster than with the command line tool.
I haven't tried Claude Code VS Code extension. Did anyone replaced Cursor with this setup?
You're looking at (coloured) diffs in your shell is all when it comes to coding. It's pretty easy to setup MCP and have claude be the director. Like I have zen MCP running with an OpenRouter API key, and will ask claude to consult with pro (gemini) or o3, or both to come up with an architecture review / plan.
I honestly don't know how great that is, because it just reiterates what I was planning anyways, and I can't tell if it's just glazing, or it's just drawing the same general conclusions. Seriously though, it does a decent job, and you can discuss / ruminate over approaches.
I assume you can do all the same things in an editor. I'm just comfortable with a shell is all, and as a hardcore Vi user, I don't really want to use Visual Studio.
I also use vim heavily and I've found that I'm really enjoying Cursor + VS Code Vim extension. The cursor tab completion works very nicely in conjunction with vim navigate mode.
I can roll back to different checkpoints with Cursor easily. Maybe CC has it but the fact that I haven’t found it after using it daily is an example of Cursor having a better UX for me.
Strictly speaking about large, complex, sprawling codebases, I don't think you can beat the experience that an IDE + coding agent brings with a terminal-based coding agent.
Auto-regressive nature of these things mean that errors accumulate, and IDEs are well placed to give that observability to the human, than a coding agent. I can course correct more easily in an IDE with clear diffs, coding navigation, than following a terminal timeline.
You can view and navigate the diffs made by the terminal agent in your IDE in realtime, just like Cursor, as well as commit, revert, etc. That’s really all the “integration” you need.
IIRC problem is that VS Code does not allow extensions to create custom UI in the panels areas except for WebViews(?). It makes for not a great experience. Plus Cursor does a lot with background indexing to make their tab completion model really good - more than would be possible with the extensions APIs available.
When the Copilot extension needs a new VS Code feature it gets added, but it isn't available to third party extensions until months later... Err, years later... well, whenever Microsoft feels like it.
So an extension will never be able to compete with Copilot.
> with a simple extension for some UX improvements
What are the UX improvements?
I was using the Pycharm plugin and didn’t notice any actual integration.
I had problems with pycharm’s terminal—not least of which was default 5k line scroll back which while easy to change was worst part of CC for me at first.
I finally jumped to using iterm and then using pycharm separately to do code review, visual git workflows, some run config etc.
But the actual value of Pycharm—-and I’ve been a real booster of that IDE has shrank due to CC and moving out of the built in terminal is a threat to usage of the product for me.
If the plugin offered some big value I might stick with it but I’m not sure what they could even do.
#1 improvement for VS Code users is giving the agent MCP tools to get diagnostics from the editor LSPs. Saves a tremendous amount of time having the agent run and rerun linting commands.
I never got the valuation. I (and many others) have built open source agent plugins that are pretty much just as good, in our free time (check out magenta nvim btw, I think it turned out neat!)
I use Windsurf so I remain in the driver's seat. Using AI coding tools too much feels like brain rot where I can't think sharply anymore. Having auto complete guess my next edit as I'm typing is great because I still retain all the control over the code base. There's never any blocks of code that I can't be bothered to look at, because I wrote everything still.
Windsurf big claim to fame was that you could run their model in airgap and they said they did not train on GPL code. This was an option available for Enterprise customers until they took it away recently to prevent self hosting
CC would explode even further if they had official Team/Enterprise plan (likely in the work, Claude Code Waffle flag), and worked on Windows without WSL (supposedly pretty easy to fix, they just didn't bother). Cursor learnt the % of Windows user was really high when they started looking, even before they really supported it.
They're likely artificially holding it back either because its a loss leader they want to use a very specific way, or because they're planning the next big boom/launch (maybe with a new model to build hype?).
The forked IDE thing I don't understand either, but...
During the evaluation at a previous job, we found that windsurf is waaaay better than anything else. They were expensive (to train on our source code directly) but the solution the offered was outperforming others.
> What does Cursor/Windsurf offer over VS Code + CC?
Cursor's @Docs is still unparalleled and no MCP server for documentation fetching even comes close. That is the only reason why I still use Cursor, sometimes I have esoteric packages that must be used in my code and other IDEs will simply hallucinate due to not having such a robust docs feature, if any, which is useless to me, and I believe Claude Code also falls into that bucket.
> Cursor's @Docs is still unparalleled and no MCP server for documentation
I strongly disagree. It will put the wrong doc snippets into context 99% of the time. If the docs are slightly long then forget it, it’ll be even worse.
What packages do you use it for? I honestly never had that issue, it's very good in my use cases to find some specific function to call or to figure out some specific syntax.
just curious because I'm inexperienced with all the latest tools here
> - Tab completion model (Cursor's remaining moat)
What is that? I have Gemini Code Assist installed in VSCode and I'm getting tab completion. (yes, LLM based tab completion)
Which, as an aside I find useful when it works but also often extremely confusing to read. Like say in C++ I type
int myVar = 123
The editor might show
int myVar = 123;
And it's nearly impossible to tell that I didn't enter that `;` so I move on to the next line instead of pressing tab only to find the `;` wasn't really there. That's also probably an easy example. Literally it feels like 1 of 6 lines I type I can't tell what is actually in the file and what is being suggested. Any tips? Maybe I just need to set some special background color for text being suggested.
and PS: that tiny example is not an example of a great tab completion. A better one is when I start editing 1 of 10 similar lines, I edit the first one, it sees the pattern and auto does the other 9. Can also do the "type a comment and it fills in the code" thing. Just trying to be clear I'm getting LLM tab completion and not using Cursor
Claude Code is totally different paradigm. You don't edit your files directly so there is no tab autocomplete. It's a chat session.
There are IDE integrations where you can run it in a terminal session while perusing the files through your IDE, but it's not powering any autocomplete there AFAIK.
Yes or running claude code in the cursor/vscode terminal and watching the files change and then reviewing in IDE. I often like to be able to see an entire file when reviewing a diff, rather than just the lines that changed. Plus it's nice to have go-to-definition when reviewing.
Depending on what I'm doing with it I have 3 modes:
Trivial/easy stuff - let it make a PR at the end and review in GitHub. It rarely gets this stuff wrong IME or does anything stupid.
Moderately complex stuff - let it code away, review/test it in my IDE and make any changes myself and tell claude what I've changed (and get it to do a quick review of my code)
Complex stuff - watch it like a hawk as it is thinking and interrupt it constantly asking questions/telling it what to do, then review in my IDE.
Apparently they are, which is crazy to me. Zed agent mode shows modified hunks and you can accept/reject them individually. I can't imagine doing it all through the CLI, it seems extremely primitive.
Yes, it shows you the file diff. But generally, the workflow is that you git commit a checkpoint, then let it make all the changes it wants freely, then in your IDE, review what has changed since previous commit, iterate the prompts/make your own adjustments to the code, and when you like it, git commit.
As far as I can tell, terminal agents are inferior to hosted agents in sandboxed/imaged environments when it comes to concurrent execution and far inferior to assisted ide in terms of UX so what exactly is the point?. The "UI niceties" is the whole point of using cursor and somehow, everyone else sucks at it.
Done. Now you have a SOTA agentic AI with pretty forgiving usage limits up and running immediately. This is why it's capturing developer mindshare. The simplicity of getting up and going with it is a selling point.
Plus it’s straightforward to make Claude Code run agents in parallel/background just like Codex and Cursor, in local sandboxes: https://github.com/dagger/container-use
You’re missing the point tho. The point of the cli agent is that it’s a building block to put this thing everywhere. Look at CCs GitHub plugin, it’s great
CC on github just looks like Codex. I see your point, but it seems like all the big players basically have a CLI agent and most of them think that its just an implementation detail so they dont expose it.
It's another Character.ai situation [0]. Unfortunate for any employees who aren't founders or researchers, as they don't get any payout or a nice new job from this exit structure. In fact they lose their whole time invested at the company.
What a harsh time to work for an AI startup as a rank and file employee! I wonder how the founders justify going along with it inside their mind.
Edit: Thank you @jonny_eh for the clarification. I can't imagine it feels awesome being a leftover but at least you vested out. "Take the money and leave" is still a bit raw when the founders and researchers are now getting the initial payout + generous Google RSU's.
Honestly depends on when they got in. Seed investors? They're probably fine with their preferences. Series B and beyond? That's where it gets messy. What round you thinking?
> Unfortunate for any employees who aren't founders or researchers, as they don't get any payout or a nice new job from this exit structure. In fact they lose their whole time invested at the company.
Windsurf’s value didn’t go to $0 overnight. The company will continue and their equity is likely still worth a decent amount wherever the company ends up.
Obviously a disappointing outcome for the people who thought life changing money was right around the corner, but they didn’t lose everything.
Just like with Character I'm assuming the employees get something. Whatever nonsense "licensing" fee Google is paying to not cause an antitrust investigation should be paid out straight to employees
Isn't there not some contractual agreement between the VCs and the founders? (I understand that a non-compete might not apply [in CA], but taking VC money is a little different that simply getting hired).
Were I a Windsurf investor, I'd be pissed right now and calling my lawyer.
the founder is on a vesting schedule set with the vc. walking away forfeits his ownership in the company (not sure of the specifics of this weird deal, but this is true in 99% of situations) which returns his ownership to the VCs either directly or functionally.
the only reason he'd walk away is because he thinks other opportunities are higher EV. if he believes this, a) the investors investment is likely worth virtually 0 anyway and b) if it's not, removing a leader who doesn't want to be there probably increases P(success) for the company and further increases the value of the investment.
founder departure isn't good for the narrative, but it's a symptom of an investment going bad, not often a cause.
Cursor (and Garry Tan’s X post) has shown us that the VC money is propping up these companies astounding growth, the only way for them to become profitable is to increase the cost per a request, which means they need to innovate like crazy.
The moat is paper thin.
GitHub has open sourced copilot.
The open source community is working hard on their own projects.
No doubt Cursor is moving fast to create amazing innovations, but if the competition only focuses on thin wrappers they are not worth the billion dollar valuations.
I love watching this space as it is moving extremely fast.
There is no moat. If you’re a true believer that strong agents are around the corner, then all of these add on companies will be obsolete in a few years. The first company to strong agents can trivially rebuild Cursor or Windsurf.
Cursor just committed mass consumer fraud at worst, and at best pissed off all their best customers. I feel really sorry for those who invested at a 9bb valuation.
flip-flopping on pricing has led users to feel nickel-and-dimed
i like cursor fine, but check out the forum/subreddit to see people talking like addicts, pissed their fix is getting more expensive
i think this aggressive reaction is more pronounced for non-programmers who are making things for the first time. they tasted a new power and they don't want it taken away.
I agree with your take, but I still don't excuse anti consumer practices like that. It annoys me because this is a repeat problem in this space, where these companies don't take into account the market dynamics, or costs of their service. From the start I've been looking at these $20.00 subscriptions, and then my own personal api per token costs and been wondering how they aren't all bankrupt.
Look no further than founders in the sports betting space, like the fanduel founders. Borrow a bunch of money at huge valuations because of hype and ignore the fact, that despite it being exciting and popular, the margins are like <5%. Fanduel founders sold for 400 something million, walked away with nothing. Its now a multibillion dollar company when the new owners realized the product was marketing, not the vig. These AI companies are shifting towards their "marketing" eras.
I think the recent Grok release and considering xAI was relatively late to the game shows that the only moat to training giant models is how many GPUs you can buy. ChatGPT was earth-shattering and it took less than two years for multiple credible competitors to match or exceed them. Making these models profitable is proving extremely difficult in the face of so much competition and such unsustainable expectations being set. Google seems to be most likely to sustain themselves through this melee. Them and the Chinese companies.
I never knew anyone who used Windsurf. These AI acquisitions have been unbelievable(in a bad way). WIX acquired some garbage Lovable.dev clone for 80 million. I think many of us are waiting for this bubble to pop(economy will likely pop too)
It was barely better than Cursor and they got shafted by Anthropic because of the takeover announcement so nobody really used it anymore because let's face it - Claude Sonnet is just the best coding model. Design-wise the chat panel and autocomplete integration was a bit nicer than in Cursor but not by much. Subscription for Windsurf was/is also 5$ cheaper.
i don't think it was better than or comparable to cursor at all. except for the month prior to the OpenAI Acquisition news where some minor influencers on X were calling it better.
Everyone has a niche, Windsurf is the only large provider if you are a Jetbrains shop.
There are some alternatives like continue.dev or Jetbrains own AI offering but no Cursor or Claude Code ( Sonnet 3.7/4) you can get through Jetbrains plugin or others, but Anthropic does not provide support same with cursor.
Base44 is absolutely not garbage. I’ve tried it and can say it’s as good or better of a vibe-builder than Lovable or Bolt. Have you benchmarked it against the competition or can you otherwise substantiate the “garbage” claim? FWIW I do know one amazing engineer using Windsurf
Agree in principle, but when evaluated against the competition and likely acquisition targets of Wix, it's certainly not garbage. I've seen it vibe code an entire app that was -- admittedly mostly working -- and deploy it with a prompt of 5 words, in about 2 minutes.
So Google, Meta, and Microsoft will just hollow out the best AI startups of their talent instead of buying them - out of fear of monopoly lawsuits I'm assuming?
Nice plan I guess. Kind of obvious to spot though.
I actually don't know if there's much that can be done unless there's some non-competes in those employees' contracts which are usually not very enforceable outside of finance iirc.
I’m honestly just surprised that the CEO and co-founder decided to walk away from the company and leave behind all these employees he was leading. Especially considering many of them probably joined for lower pay, hoping for a big upside.
Yes, startups are always a bit of a gamble, but this feels like a captain abandoning ship while it’s still full of sailors (many of whom have families depending on them).
This really is a whole new level of getting screwed.
“Buying the startup” just means handing over megabucks to do-nothing investors. If Google isn’t buying any product or technology, why should investors get a talent fee?
Do nothing investors who enabled the company to reach this point? Employees who chose lower salaries in expectation of shares being worth something? Come on now.
There are many AI startups and we are just in the beginning of learning how to use them. There will be some stupid company like those you’ve listed that figures out a way to use AI that is far better than any other implementation, and Google, Meta, and Microsoft may go the way of Yahoo and AOL, but we’ll see
The “talent” is not very talented, trust me. These are the short term whims of very large, increasingly bloated organizations. A leaner startup that knows what it has will not sell so quickly. At least, the odds will soon be in favor of whoever first decides to take that bet.
> Google will instead hire Windsurf CEO Varun Mohan, cofounder Douglas Chen, and some of Windsurf’s R&D employees and bring them onto the Google DeepMind team, [...] Google will not have any control over nor a stake in Windsurf, but it will take a non-exclusive license to some of Windsurf’s technology. [...] Google didn’t share how much it was paying to bring on the team. OpenAI was previously reported to be buying Windsurf for $3 billion.
Why not an acquisition?
How did Google get Windsurf and investors to agree to this maneuver that decapitated the leadership and key talent, without a big exit event for everyone?
My read of the article: "Here's x% of what OpenAI offered you, you waive legal challenges while we cherry-pick your people and license the tech in their heads, and you can keep the company, and everyone left behind can promote themselves to fill the vacancies."
Works out for Google and the C-suite. Horrible for the employees. These fake-acquisitions are effectively arbitrage against employees, who get left holding nothing. Should be illegal and regulated.
Not sure how the VCs get their cut. I'm guessing that Google can balance it out by participating in rounds for other startups in that VC's porfolio.
I went from Emacs to VS Code, then to Cursor, next to Claude Code, which is so good that I feel like I am having half a dozen junior devs at my fingertips, 24/7.
Since Claude Code is cli based, I reviewed my cli toolset: Migrated from iTerm2 to Ghostty and Tmux, from Cursor to NeoVim (my God is it good!).
Just had a 14h workday with this tooling. It’s so good that I complete the work of weeks and months within days! Absolutely beast.
At this point I am thinking IDEs do not reflect the changing reality of software development. They are designed for navigating project folders, writing / changing files. But I don’t review files that much anymore. I rather write prompts, watch Claude Code create a plan, implement it, even write meaningful commit messages.
Yes I can navigate the project with neovim, yes I can make commits in git and in lazygit, but my task is best spent in designing, planning, prompting, reviewing and testing.
At work we’re encouraged to use AI, so I do. For me the one thing that works well is using it to write one off scripts that do stuff and would be a chore to write.
Usually in 2-3 prompts I can get a python or shell script that reads some file list somewhere, reads some json/csv elsewhere. Combines it in various ways and spits out some output to be ingested by some other pipeline.
I just test this code if it works it’s good.
Never in my life would I put this in a critical system though. When I review these files they are full of tiny errors that would blow up in spectacular manner if the input was slightly off somewhere.
It’s good for what it is. But I’m honestly afraid of production code being vibe coded by these tools.
yes vibecoding is addicting like that. but if you are not reviewing any code and simply vibing then
in my expreience you'll eventually get stuck in "its still not working" loops beause you have no other context or insight to provide it other than that. Then you have either accept what you have or throw the whole thing out and/or actually read the code . kind of rules out last option because code is now just too far gone with too many special cases hardcoded because AI sucks at abstraction or real software engineering.
Well you can't risk Claude quitting overnight. It forgets everything it did the day before and now you have to start over ... must ... finish ... tonight ... within ... context ... window.
Cursor's Accept / Reject feature for each change it makes in each file is nice whereas I have to use a diff tool to review the changes in Claude Code.
Also, if I go down a prompt alley that's a dead end, Cursor has the Restore Checkpoint feature to get back to the original prompt and try a different path. With Claude Code, you had better have committed the code to git, otherwise you end up with a mess you didn't want.
My company pays for both, but I mostly use Cursor unless I know I am doing a new project or some proof of concept, which Claude Code might have an edge on with a more mature TODO list feature.
I got burned too many times from that Restore Checkpoint thing not working right, maybe it's been fixed by now but seems silly to rely on something thats not a literal tool built for the job (version control), not a good shortcut.
This whole situation feels shockingly close to the Meta/Scale situation, where founders and specific employees were plucked out, and effectively gutted any future prospects for the company.
At least in the Scale case there seemed to be some form of payout to employees and equity holders, but this takes it a whole lot further by just throwing out all other employees.
There is supposed to be the concept that “all common stock is the same”. These fake-acquisitions completely undermine that.
I'm not surprised. I started using Windsurf when it came out because I liked its UX better than Cursor's.
However, while Cursor and GH Copilot improved, Windsurf went in the opposite direction. On each update, I started to get more and more issues. The agent often tried to run shell commands, and it hung up, or I found minor UI bugs. One day, I decided to give GH Copilot another chance, and I was surprised by how it evolved, to the point that it worked better than Windsurf for my usage. I don’t know what happened internally at Windsurf, but I notice the degradation as a user. If my case indicates what happened to other users, maybe OpenAI saw declining subscriptions and canceled the deal.
> OpenAI’s deal to buy Windsurf is off, and Google will instead hire Windsurf CEO Varun Mohan, cofounder Douglas Chen, and some of Windsurf’s R&D employees and bring them onto the Google DeepMind team, Google and Windsurf announced Friday.
> Mohan and the Windsurf employees will focus on agentic coding efforts at Google DeepMind and work largely on Gemini. Google will not have any control over nor a stake in Windsurf, but it will take a non-exclusive license to some of Windsurf’s technology.
Sounds to me like they're "hiring" them like one "hires" a consultant?
I don't know anyone who heard or used Windsurf outside the Bay Area. Even Cursor feels very Bay Area bubbly (although that is the market to go after if you're in ai dev tools).
Cursor does add value but it's just a thin layer on top of VSCode so companies could just build that in-house and don't need to acquire. There's no moat there.
Cursor has custom tab and embedding models. And has a lot of distribution / paying users already.
Arguably they have the strongest product moat, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they beat OpenAI in a vertical coding model from that. Easy for them to have users generate evals and have model product feedback loop here.
The tab completion is fast and the best available right now but is still so garbage that I turn it off 99% of the time because the suggestions are mostly noise.
I have the opposite experience, it’s at least 90% correct. For example, if I start writing the name of a function that I just added in a different file, tab will suggest the function, then jump to the top of the file to import it. If I’m changing the way something is called in 5 places, if I change it in the first place, tab will jump to make the same change in the other places. It’s honestly pretty spot on.
Zed tab is a lot worse in comparison (partly because it’s slow)
It's unclear if OpenAI cancelled the deal, or Google poached them? Either way, this season of "OpenAI Drama" is wild. First Meta, now Google. Your turn Amazon / Microsoft.
Apparently OpenAI allowed the deal to expire; likely Google had already been in discussion with Windsurf as I'm sure they knew the deal was likely to die well before today.
I don't know if you noticed but cursors language server aspect that runs the coding edits and stuff like that from a server to the workstation is a lot better than windsurf.
Windsurf phone's home on every code edit that you have and takes on 30% load on your servers or on your workstation depending on what you're running.
I would strongly discourage the use of windsurf on your systems.
Case in point their AI model that they just built.
I'm a rank and file dev at a non-big tech company and I got a call from a Windsurf sales rep this week who I had connected with on LinkedIn the day before (I never gave them my number). They told me my company was in talks with Windsurf about a licensing deal but that they would give me a 30 day trial of an enterprise account for use on personal projects to let me try it in advance. I guess the idea for them is to build enthusiasm among devs in the company?
Is this a standard sales strategy for products like this? It seems pretty aggressive to me but I'm just an engineer so I wouldn't know.
I did not see this coming. Wow. The game of thrones in SV.
I wonder what happened with the OpenAI deal. Anyone have any guesses? My first guess is "Look at Claude Code, we can do this ourselves." But, I am likely thinking too simply.
edit: does this mean that Windsurf and its users will stop being iced-out by Anthropic? Or, is this the end of Windsurf?
I have been using Windsurf for few months. They even have their own AI model SWE-1 model. I really liked using Windsurf. They also have integrations with other IDEs ex: jetbrains, VS code, etc.
This week I have been using Claude Code and Windsurf side by side. I would make change with one, stash it, ask the other for similar change and then would diff it.
Overall Windsurf was pretty on a par with Claude code.
This certainly aligns with my own usage. I'm currently using OpenAI's own Codex 50:1 compared to Windsurf. For me, I'd rather take some time to create a good quality prompt and have it work away for a few minutes and create a material delta. It isn't always perfect, and I often have to make a few tweaks myself, but it is much nicer and waiting around and watching Windsurf bang around on a tiny part of the solution. Windsurf is still nice to use for quick UI iteration however.
For the love of God, can we get a reboot of the Silicon Valley television show? Just on AI. Like when they wrapped it, they wrapped it on AI usage. So, it's got the perfect arc for a reboot that focuses perfectly on AI.
My favorite thing about that series was watching it with friends who weren't from the Bay Area. Often they'd be laughing at the sheer absurdity of a situation, and I'd get to point out that it was barely exaggerated from real life.
That's what my friends not from SF said. "This is insane, this would never happen"
Dude, I saw a lot crazier things happen on a monthly basis. And don't even get me started on the personal lives and partying that the show didn't display.
This isn’t a great look for OpenAI, but acquisitions fall through all the time.
The issue isn’t an acquisition not working out, it’s that the founding/exec team felt it appropriate to arrange their own exits and abandon their team before even communicating that their “successful exit” wasn’t actually happening.
Perhaps it as combination of how much founders were diluted and how much they are being offered upfront. We are hearing about $100M signing bonuses.
It is hard to say no when Google/Meta gives you say $100M upfront and hundreds more if not Billion+ in RSUs. After 3 rounds it is not unreasonable to have only 5-10%.
10% of a company worth a few billion burning a lot of cash, that needs to keep raising more rounds i.e more dilution, may have less value than RSUs from multi-trillion dollar publicly traded liquid tech company today.
It is also quite hard to raise $5-10+Billion in cash. There are only handful of startups which have ever done so
Very few funds/investors can afford to do so large rounds. This was SoftBank's thesis for most of last decade, compete by just outfunding competing products in a market.
Not Windsurf… OpenAI. And OpenAI cares because they’re competing (in part) against Copilot, so if Msoft gets all the benefits of Windsurf then OpenAI would effectively be paying 3B to feed their competitor.
Are these "acquihire & license" the new M&A...? I recall hearing that this was a "hack" to avoid DOJ and FTC scrutiny over acquisitions, but I have no clue how such deals are structured. Anyone care to chime in?
Windsurf's value to OpenAI was for the latter to "see the whole chessboard" of context, which is helpful when you're training models to be good at coding.
But codex (and Claude Code) fulfill this from the CLI, and it's a first-party utility, not an acquisition.
It's something you should never assume is true until the wire hits your account. I had a deal where I was going to make $15 million called off 36 hours before closing.
I wonder if this is a result of the previously reported clashes between OpenAI and Microsoft over access to the Windsurf IP (under their investment agreement)
So the result of aggressively scrutinizing big tech acquisitions is acquihires, not a more competitive tech ecosystem with say more IPO’s.
The libertarian spin on this would be government should have never scrutinized acquisitions and the result is just worse for everyone.
The progressive spin would be to now ban acquihires somehow, and then whatever new legal invention will be created next. I can imagine the next step being, creating a consulting company out of your startup and then selling yourself as consultants to big techs. Now you are neither acquired nor technically acqui-hired and the whackamole continues.
At some point, we need to realize the solution is the culture of people involved. If the government could just ask to reduce acquisitions to make the ecosystem more competitive and companies tried following it in spirit to the best of their ability, we might have much better results than whatever we have now. When culture degrades, the govt can’t trust companies, the companies can’t trust the govt, everything just gets worse, regardless of what rules you write and enforce.
The culture of the people involved got us to this point, I’m not sure it’s the solution to the problem.
> The progressive spin would be to now ban acquihires somehow, and then whatever new legal invention will be created next.
Progressive has become a moving target, but the pro-competition view would be to break up the massively concentrated companies that are further consolidating markets. Thats what the Khan FTC was trying to do, but we need a Congress interested in a competitive marketplace, which we haven’t had in a while.
This wasn't a result of regulator scrutiny. The issue was that MS (owner of Copilot) was demanding access to the IP (due to their existing agreement with OpenAI), and OpenAI was resisting. In addition, Claude blocked access to Windsurf, which also damaged them as an acquisition target.
I find this hard to believe considering all the recent acquihires that happened recently like Character AI, Inflection, Covariant AI, Scale AI, context AI and so on. Maybe you’re right about the specifics of this situation, but my prior for this being an acquihire is very high and I would need to see very compelling evidence that that is not the case.
Honestly there's no value that windsurf, cursor and all the other VSCode forks provide that couldn't be provided as an extension and even then - none of them perform as well for agentic coding as Cline / Roo Code (debates about the subscription pricing aside due to people often not realising their model limits, public US only based APIs, pay for useful API limits etc aside).
The founders fucked over the employees and the investors and sold out. I guess they don’t care if they are worth $200M each but they fucked every employee that poured their heart out into that company.
@dang - The title’s wording suggest that OpenAI’s CEO is leaving, not Windsurf. A more accurate title might be: “Windsurf’s deal with OpenAI is off, and its CEO is going to Google”
This deal always looked strange in the first place. The usage of Windsurf was significantly lower than Cursor and Copilot and somehow it was worth $3B.
Given the release of Claude Code, it was already over for them.
https://web.archive.org/web/20250711213611/https://www.theve...
IMO other than the Microsoft IP issue, I think the biggest thing that has shifted since this acquisition was first in the works is Claude Code has absolutely exploded. Forking an IDE and all the expense that comes with that feels like a waste of effort, considering the number of free/open source CLI agentic tools that are out there.
Let's review the current state of things:
- Terminal CLI agents are several orders of magnitude less $$$ to develop than forking an entire IDE.
- CC is dead simple to onboard (use whatever IDE you're using now, with a simple extension for some UX improvements).
- Anthropic is free to aggressively undercut their own API margins (and middlemen like Cursor) in exchange for more predictable subscription revenue + training data access.
What does Cursor/Windsurf offer over VS Code + CC?
- Tab completion model (Cursor's remaining moat)
- Some UI niceties like "add selection to chat", and etc.
Personally I think this is a harbinger of where things are going. Cursor was fastest to $900M ARR and IMO will be fastest back down again.
Agreed on everything. Just to add, not only anthropic is offering CC at like a 500% loss, they restricted sonnet/opus 4 access to windsurf, and jacked up their enterprise deal to Cursor. The increase in price was so big that it forced cursor to make that disastrous downgrade to their plans.
I think only way Cursor and other UX wrappers still win is if on device models or at least open source models catch up in the next 2 years. Then i can see a big push for UX if models are truly a commodity. But as long as claude is much better then yes they hold all the cards. (And don't have a bigger company to have a civil war with like openai)
> CC at like a 500% loss
Do you have a citation for this?
It might be at a loss, but I don’t think it is that extravagant.
The way I am doing the math with my Max subscription and assuming DeepSeek API prices, it is still x5 times cheaper. So either DeepSeek is losing money (unlikely) or Anthropic is losing lots of money (more likely). Grok kinda confirms my suspicions. Assuming DeepSeek prices, I've probably spent north of $100 of Grok compute. I didn't pay Grok or Twitter a single cent. $100 is a lot of loss for a single user.
Before they announced the Max plans, I could easily hit 10-15$ of API usage per day (without even being a heavy user).
Since they announced that you can use the Pro subscription with Claude Code, I've been using it much more and I've never ever been rate limited.
This is what I don’t get about the cost being reported by Claude code. At work I use it against our AWS Bedrock instance, and most sessions will say 15/20 dollars and I’ll have multiple agents running. So I can easily spend 60 bucks a day in reported cost. Our AWS Bedrock bill is only a small fraction of that? Why would you over charge on direct usage of your API?
I'm also curious about this. Claude Code feels very expensive to me, but at the same time I don't have much perspective (nothing to compare it to, really, other than Codex or other agent editors I guess. And CC is way better so likely worth the extra money anyway)
I think GP is talking about Claude Code Max 100 & 200 plans. They are very reasonable compared to anything else that has per-use token usage.
I am on Max and I can work 5 hrs+ a day easily. It does fall back to Sonnet pretty fast, but I don't seem to notice any big differece.
Yes, my CC usage is regularly $50-$100 per day, so their Max plan is absolutely great value that I don’t expect to last.
Pretty easy to hit $100 an hour using Opus on API credits. The model providers are heavily subsidized, the datacenters appear to be too. If you look at the Coreweave stuff and the private datacenters it starts looking like the telecom bubble. Even Meta is looking to finance datacenter expansion - https://www.reuters.com/business/meta-seeks-29-billion-priva...
The reason they are talking about building new nuclear power plants in the US isn't just for a few training runs, its for inference. At scale the AI tools are going to be extremely expensive.
Also note China produces twice as much electricity as the United States. Software development and agent demand is going to be competitive across industries. You may think, oh I can just use a few hours of this a day and I got a week of work done (happens to me some days), but you are going to end up needing to match what your competitors are doing - not what you got comfortable with. This is the recurring trap of new technology (no capitalism required.)
There is a danger to independent developers becoming reliant on models. $100-$200 is a customer acquisition cost giveaway. The state of the art models probably will end up costing hourly what a human developer costs. There is also the speed and batching part. How willing is the developer to, for example, get 50% off but maybe wait twice as long for the output. Hopefully the good dev models end up only costing $1000-$2000 a month in a year. At least that will be more accessible.
Somewhere in the future these good models will run on device and just cost the price of your hardware. Will it be the AGI models? We will find out.
I wonder how this comment will age, will look back at it in 5 or 10 years.
Is there a cheap version for hobbyists? Or what’s the best thing for hobbyists to use, just cut and paste?
Claude Code pro is ~$20USD/ month and is nearly enough for someone like me who can’t use it at work and is just playing around with it after work. I’m loving it.
I've been enjoying Zed lately
Cursor at 20$/M is pretty great
Can you give me an idea of how much interaction would be $50-$100 per day? Like are you pretty constantly in a back and forth with CC? And if you wouldn’t mind, any chance you can give me an idea of productivity gains pre/post LLM?
Yes, a lot of usage, I’d guess top 10% among my peers. I do 6-10hrs of constant iterating across mid-size codebases of 750k tokens. CC is set to use Opus by default, which further drives up costs.
Estimating productivity gains is a flame war I don’t want to start, but as a signal: if the CC Max plan goes up 10x in price, I’m still keeping my subscription.
I maintain top-tier subscription to every frontier service (~$1k/mo) and throughout the week spend multiple hours with each of Cursor, Amp, Augment, Windsurf, Codex CLI, Gemini CLI, but keep on defaulting to Claude Code.
I am curious what kind of code development you are doing with so many subscriptions?
Are you doing front end backend full stack or model development itself?
Are you destilling models for training your own?
I have never heard someone using so much subscription?
Is this for your full time job or startup?
Why not use qwen or deep seek and host it yourself?
I am impressed with what you are doing.
Thank you for your perspective. I’ve been staring at Claude Code for a bit and I think I will just pull the trigger.
I am curious what kind of development you’re doing and where your projects fall on the fast iteration<->correctness curve (no judgment). I’ve used CC Pro for a few weeks now and I will keep it, it’s fantastically useful for some things, but it has wasted more of my time than it saved when I’ve experimented with giving it harder tasks.
Re productivity gains, CC allows me to code during my commute time. Even on a crowded bus/train I can get real work done just with my phone.
How do you use Claude Code via your phone?
What's your workflow if I may ask? I've been interested in the idea as well.
The project is just a web backend. I give Claude Code grunt work tasks. Things like "make X operation also return Y data" or "create Z new model + CRUD operations". Also asking it to implement well-known patterns like denouncing or caching for an existing operation works well.
My app builds and runs fine on Termux, so my CLAUDE.md says to always run unit tests after making changes. So I punch in a request, close my phone for a bit, then check back later and review the diff. Usually takes one or two follow-up asks to get right, but since it always builds and passes tests, I never get complete garbage back.
There are some tasks that I never give it. Most of that is just intuition. Anything I need to understand deeply or care about the implementation of I do myself. And the app was originally hand-built by me, which I think is important - I would not trust CC to design the entire thing from scratch. It's much easier to review changes when you understand the overall architecture deeply.
Unless you're getting paid for your commute, you're just giving your employer free productivity. I would recommend doing literally anything else with that time. Read a book, maybe.
It's for a paid side gig.
You can tell Claude Code to use opus using /model and then it doesn't fall back to Sonnet btw. I am on the $100 plan and I hit rate-limits every now and then, but not enough to warrant using Sonnet instead of Opus.
Seems like the survival strategy for cursor would be to develop their own frontier coding model. Maybe they can leverage the data from their still somewhat significant lead in the space to make a solid effort.
I don’t think that’s a viable strategy. It is very very hard and not many people can do it. Just look at how much Meta is paying to poach the few people in the world capable of training a next gen frontier model.
Why are there actually only a few people in the world able to do this?
The basic concept is out there.
Lots of smart people studying hard to catch up to also be poached. No shortage of those I assume.
Good trainingsdata still seems the most important to me.
(and lots of hardware)
Or does the specific training still involves lots of smart decisions all the time?
And those small or big decisions make all the difference?
The basic concept plus a lot of money spent on compute and training data gets you pretraining. After that to get a really good model there’s a lot more fine-tuning / RL steps that companies are pretty secretive about. That is where the “smart decisions” and knowledge gained by training previous generations of sota models comes in.
We’d probably see more companies training their own models if it was cheaper, for sure. Maybe some of them would do very well. But even having a lot of money to throw at this doesn’t guarantee success, e.g. Meta’s Llama 4 was a big disappointment.
That said, it’s not impossible to catch up to close to state-of-the-art, as Deepseek showed.
1. Cost to hire is now prohibitive. You're competing against companies like Meta paying tens of millions for top talent.
2. Cost to train is also prohibitive. Grok data centre has 200,000 H100 Graphics cards. Impossible for a startup to compete with this.
I'd recommend reading some of the papers on what it takes to actually train a proper foundation model, such as the Llama 3 Herd of Models paper. It is a deeply sophisticated process.
Coding startups also try to fine-tune OSS models to their own ends. But this is also very difficult, and usually just done as a cost optimization, not as a way to get better functionality.
> to develop their own frontier coding model
Uh, the irony is that this is exactly what Windsurf tried.
Why did they fail?
It probably doesn’t cost them all that much? Maybe they were offering the API at a 500% markup, and code is just breaking even.
Is this $900M ARR a reliable number?
Their base is $20/mth. That would equal 3.75M people paying a sub to Cursor.
If literally everyone is on their $200/mth plan, then that would be 375K paid users.
There’s 50M VS Code + VS users (May 2025). [1] 7% of all VS Code users having switched to Cursor does not match my personal circle of developers. 0.7% . . . Maybe? But, that would be if everyone using Cursor were paying $200/month.
Seems impossibly high, especially given the number of other AI subscription options as well.
[1] https://devblogs.microsoft.com/blog/celebrating-50-million-d...
Maybe the OP got confused with Cursor's $900mil raise? https://cursor.com/blog/series-c
Last disclosed revenue from Cursor was $500mil. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-06-05/anysphere...
It’s probably due to the top comment citing that number
Yeah that’s probably it!
The $20/month cursor sub is heavily limited though, for basic casual usage that's fine but you VERY soon run into its limits when working at any speed.
The base plan limit is not hard to hit. Then you're on the usage based rocket.
- Forking VSCode is very easy; you can do it in 1 hour.
- Anthropic doesn't use the inputs for training.
- Cursor doesn't have $900M ARR. That was the raise. Their ARR is ~$500m [1].
- Claude Code already support the niceties, including "add selection to chat", accessing IDE's realtime warnings and errors (built-in tool 'ideDiagnostics'), and using IDE's native diff viewer for reviewing the edits.
[1] https://techcrunch.com/2025/06/05/cursors-anysphere-nabs-9-9...
The cost of the fork isn't creating it, it's maintaining it. But maybe AI could help :/
Claude Code is just proving that coding agents can be successful. The interface isn’t magic, it just fits the model and integrates with a system in all the right ways. The Anthropic team for that product is very small comparatively (their most prolific contributor is Claude), and I think it’s more of a technology proof than a core competency - it’s a great API $ business lever, but there’s no reason for them to try and win the “agentic coding UI” market. Unless Generative AI flops everywhere else, these markets will continue to emerge and need focus. The Windsurf kerfuffle is further proof that OpenAI doesn’t see the market as must-win for a frontier model shop.
And so I’d say this isn’t a harbinger of the death of Cursor, instead proof that there’s a future in the market they were just recently winning.
Cursor see it coming - it's why they're moving to the web and mobile[0]
The bigger issue is the advantage Anthropic, Google and OpenAI have in developing and deploying their own models. It wasn't that long ago that Cursor was reading 50 lines of code at a time to save on token costs. Anthropic just came out and yolo'd the context window because they could afford to, and it blew everything else away.
Cursor could release a cli tomorrow but it wouldn't help them compete when Anthropic and Google can always be multiples cheaper
[0] https://cursor.com/blog/agent-web
> Anthropic just came out and yolo'd the context window because they could afford to
I don’t think this is true at all. The reason CC is so good is that they’re very deliberate about what goes in the context. CC often spends ages reading 5 LOC snippets, but afterwards it only has relevant stuff in context.
Background of how it works: https://kirshatrov.com/posts/claude-code-internals
Prompt: https://gist.github.com/transitive-bullshit/487c9cb52c75a970...
I'm always surprised how short system prompts are. It makes me wonder where the rest of the app's behavior is encoded.
I’ve definitely observed that CC is waaaay slower than cursor
Heard a lot of this context bs parroted all over HN, don't buy it. If simply increasing context size can solve problem, Gemini would be the best model for everything.
Gemini tends to be better at bug hunting, but yes everything else Claude is still superior
I think this is an interesting and cool direction for Cursor to be going in and I don't doubt something like this is the future. But I have my doubts whether it will save them in the short/medium term:
- AI is not good enough yet to abandon the traditional IDE experierence if you're doing anything non-trivial. Hard finding use cases for this right now.
- There's no moat here. There are already a dozen "Claude Code UI" OSS projects with similar basic functionality.
I have a whole backlog of trivial tasks I never get around to because I’m working on less trivial things.
>> Claude Code has absolutely exploded
Does anyone have a comparison between this and OpenAI Codex? I find OpenAI's thing really good actually (vastly better workflow that Windsurf). Maybe I am missing out however.
Some excellent points. On “add selection to chat”, I just want to add that the Claude Code VS code extension automatically passes the current selection to the model. :)
I am genuinely curious if any Cursor or Windsurf users who have also tried Claude Code could speak to why they prefer the IDE-fork tools? I’ve only ever used Claude Code myself - what am I missing?
Cursor's tab completion model is legitimately fantastic and for many people is worth the entire $20 subscription. Lint fixes or syntax-level refactors are guessed and executed instantly with TAB with close to 100% accuracy. This is their final moat IMO, if Copilot manages to bring their tab completion up to near parity, very little reason to use Cursor.
Idk. When you're doing something it really gets it's super nice, but it's also off a lot of times and it's IMO super distracting when it constantly pop up. No way to explicitly request it instead - other than toggling, which seems to also turn off context/edit tracking, because after toggling on it does not suggest anything until you make some edits.
While Zed's model is not as good the UI is so much better IMO.
Just to offer a different perspective, I use Cursor at work and, coming from emacs (which I still use) with copilot completions only when I request them with a shortcut, Cursor’s behavior drives me crazy.
<https://forum.cursor.com/t/i-made-59-699-lines-of-agent-edit...>
It's quite interesting how little the Cursor power users use tab. Majority of the posts are some insane number of agent edits and close to (or exactly) 0 tabs.
At my company we have an enterprise subscription and we're also all allowed to see the analytics for the entire company. Last I checked, I was literally the number one user of Tab and middle of the pack for agent.
It's interesting when I see videos or reddit posts about cursor and people getting rate limited and being super angry. In my experience tab is the number one feature, and I feel like most people using agent are probably overusing it tasks that would honestly take less time to do myself or using models way smarter than they need to be for the task at hand.
I'd like to ask the opposite question: why do people prefer command line tools? I tried both and I prefer working in IDE. The main reason is that I don't trust the LLMs too much and I like to see and potentially quickly edit the changes they make. With an IDE, I can iterate much faster than with the command line tool.
I haven't tried Claude Code VS Code extension. Did anyone replaced Cursor with this setup?
You're looking at (coloured) diffs in your shell is all when it comes to coding. It's pretty easy to setup MCP and have claude be the director. Like I have zen MCP running with an OpenRouter API key, and will ask claude to consult with pro (gemini) or o3, or both to come up with an architecture review / plan.
I honestly don't know how great that is, because it just reiterates what I was planning anyways, and I can't tell if it's just glazing, or it's just drawing the same general conclusions. Seriously though, it does a decent job, and you can discuss / ruminate over approaches.
I assume you can do all the same things in an editor. I'm just comfortable with a shell is all, and as a hardcore Vi user, I don't really want to use Visual Studio.
I also use vim heavily and I've found that I'm really enjoying Cursor + VS Code Vim extension. The cursor tab completion works very nicely in conjunction with vim navigate mode.
JetBrains has CC integration where CC runs in a terminal window but uses the IDE (i.e., Pycharm) for diffing. Works well.
I can roll back to different checkpoints with Cursor easily. Maybe CC has it but the fact that I haven’t found it after using it daily is an example of Cursor having a better UX for me.
Or Cursor just gave him a better deal?
It already does this btw, when you use Cc from the vscode terminal and select things it adds it to cc context automatically
As does Copilot
Strictly speaking about large, complex, sprawling codebases, I don't think you can beat the experience that an IDE + coding agent brings with a terminal-based coding agent.
Auto-regressive nature of these things mean that errors accumulate, and IDEs are well placed to give that observability to the human, than a coding agent. I can course correct more easily in an IDE with clear diffs, coding navigation, than following a terminal timeline.
> I don't think you can beat the experience that an IDE + coding agent brings with a terminal-based coding agent.
CC has some integration with VSC it is not all or nothing.
You can view and navigate the diffs made by the terminal agent in your IDE in realtime, just like Cursor, as well as commit, revert, etc. That’s really all the “integration” you need.
> - Tab completion model (Cursor's remaining moat)
My local ollama + continue + Qwen 2.5 coder gives good tab completion with minimal latency; how much better is Cursor’s tab completion model?
I’m still weary of letting LLM edit my code so my local setup gives me sufficient assistance with tab completion and occasional chat.
I never understood why those tools need to fork Visual Studio Code. Wouldn't an extension suffice?
Cline and Roo Code (my favorite Cline fork) are fantastic and run as normal VS Code extensions.
Occasionally they lose their connection to the terminal in VSCode, but I’ve got no other integration complaints.
And I really prefer the bring-your-own-key model as opposed to letting the IDE be my middleman.
IIRC problem is that VS Code does not allow extensions to create custom UI in the panels areas except for WebViews(?). It makes for not a great experience. Plus Cursor does a lot with background indexing to make their tab completion model really good - more than would be possible with the extensions APIs available.
When the Copilot extension needs a new VS Code feature it gets added, but it isn't available to third party extensions until months later... Err, years later... well, whenever Microsoft feels like it.
So an extension will never be able to compete with Copilot.
As part of this whole drama, the APIs that Copilot uses are being opened up https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2025/06/30/openSourceAIE...
It was so they could close source it.
> with a simple extension for some UX improvements
What are the UX improvements?
I was using the Pycharm plugin and didn’t notice any actual integration.
I had problems with pycharm’s terminal—not least of which was default 5k line scroll back which while easy to change was worst part of CC for me at first.
I finally jumped to using iterm and then using pycharm separately to do code review, visual git workflows, some run config etc.
But the actual value of Pycharm—-and I’ve been a real booster of that IDE has shrank due to CC and moving out of the built in terminal is a threat to usage of the product for me.
If the plugin offered some big value I might stick with it but I’m not sure what they could even do.
#1 improvement for VS Code users is giving the agent MCP tools to get diagnostics from the editor LSPs. Saves a tremendous amount of time having the agent run and rerun linting commands.
This is a great point. Now I'm wondering if there's a way to get LSPs going with the terminal/TUI interface.
opencode has that
I never got the valuation. I (and many others) have built open source agent plugins that are pretty much just as good, in our free time (check out magenta nvim btw, I think it turned out neat!)
I use Windsurf so I remain in the driver's seat. Using AI coding tools too much feels like brain rot where I can't think sharply anymore. Having auto complete guess my next edit as I'm typing is great because I still retain all the control over the code base. There's never any blocks of code that I can't be bothered to look at, because I wrote everything still.
Good analysis. And Claude code itself will be mercilessly copied, so even if another model jumps ahead, small switching cost.
That said, the creator of Claude Code jumped to Cursor so they must see a there there.
Windsurf big claim to fame was that you could run their model in airgap and they said they did not train on GPL code. This was an option available for Enterprise customers until they took it away recently to prevent self hosting
CC would explode even further if they had official Team/Enterprise plan (likely in the work, Claude Code Waffle flag), and worked on Windows without WSL (supposedly pretty easy to fix, they just didn't bother). Cursor learnt the % of Windows user was really high when they started looking, even before they really supported it.
They're likely artificially holding it back either because its a loss leader they want to use a very specific way, or because they're planning the next big boom/launch (maybe with a new model to build hype?).
They quietly released an update to CC earlier today so it can now be run natively on Windows.
The Microsoft investments in both VSCode and GitHub are looking incredibly prescient.
The forked IDE thing I don't understand either, but...
During the evaluation at a previous job, we found that windsurf is waaaay better than anything else. They were expensive (to train on our source code directly) but the solution the offered was outperforming others.
> What does Cursor/Windsurf offer over VS Code + CC?
Cursor's @Docs is still unparalleled and no MCP server for documentation fetching even comes close. That is the only reason why I still use Cursor, sometimes I have esoteric packages that must be used in my code and other IDEs will simply hallucinate due to not having such a robust docs feature, if any, which is useless to me, and I believe Claude Code also falls into that bucket.
> Cursor's @Docs is still unparalleled and no MCP server for documentation
I strongly disagree. It will put the wrong doc snippets into context 99% of the time. If the docs are slightly long then forget it, it’ll be even worse.
I never use it because of this.
What packages do you use it for? I honestly never had that issue, it's very good in my use cases to find some specific function to call or to figure out some specific syntax.
Claude code can get pretty far simply calling `go doc` on packages.
I've tried all the CLI and vscode with agent mode (and personally I prefer o4-mini) is the best thing out there.
Is Claude code expensive? Can you control the costs or can it surprise you.
On a subscription, it is 100% predictable: $20, $100, or $200/month
Almost all of this was true before they even announced the purchase. I was so shocked and now I’m not surprised it fell through
does claude code have a privacy mode with zero data retention?
Haven’t looked recently but when it came out, the story was that it was private by default. It uses a regular API token, which promises no retention.
just curious because I'm inexperienced with all the latest tools here
> - Tab completion model (Cursor's remaining moat)
What is that? I have Gemini Code Assist installed in VSCode and I'm getting tab completion. (yes, LLM based tab completion)
Which, as an aside I find useful when it works but also often extremely confusing to read. Like say in C++ I type
The editor might show And it's nearly impossible to tell that I didn't enter that `;` so I move on to the next line instead of pressing tab only to find the `;` wasn't really there. That's also probably an easy example. Literally it feels like 1 of 6 lines I type I can't tell what is actually in the file and what is being suggested. Any tips? Maybe I just need to set some special background color for text being suggested.and PS: that tiny example is not an example of a great tab completion. A better one is when I start editing 1 of 10 similar lines, I edit the first one, it sees the pattern and auto does the other 9. Can also do the "type a comment and it fills in the code" thing. Just trying to be clear I'm getting LLM tab completion and not using Cursor
This feeling of, “what exactly is in the file?” is why I have all AI turned off in my IDE, and run CC independently.
I get all AI or none, so it’s always obvious what’s happening.
Completions are OK, but I did not enjoy the feeling of both us having a hand on the wheel and trying to type at the same time.
Tab completion in cursor lets you keep hitting tab and it will jump to next logical spot in file to keep editing or completing from.
Is the case for using Claude Code much weaker now that Gemini CLI is out?
no. CC is not just a cli. Its cli + their pro/max plan.
gemini cli is very expensive.
Isn't Gemini CLI 1000 requests/day free?
https://blog.google/technology/developers/introducing-gemini...
They do have a subscription: it's $22/month, but the whole pricing and instructions is very confusing, it took me 15 min to figure it all out.
Just cancelled my Cursor sub due to claude code, so heavily agree.
for those who seldom use the terminal, is Claude Code still usable? I heard it doesn't do tab autocomplete in IDE like Cursor
I think lots of issues with the integration of CC or other TUI with graphical IDEs will be solved with stuff like the Agentic Coding Protocol that the guys at Zed at working on https://www.npmjs.com/package/@zed-industries/agentic-coding...
I trust zed to get it right over cursor with their continual enshittification.
Claude Code is totally different paradigm. You don't edit your files directly so there is no tab autocomplete. It's a chat session.
There are IDE integrations where you can run it in a terminal session while perusing the files through your IDE, but it's not powering any autocomplete there AFAIK.
are people viewing file diffs in the terminal? surely people aren't just vibing code changes in
Yes. I manually read the diff of every proposed change and manually accept or deny.
I love CC, but letting it auto-write changes is, at best, a waste of time trying to find the bugs after they start compounding.
Yes or running claude code in the cursor/vscode terminal and watching the files change and then reviewing in IDE. I often like to be able to see an entire file when reviewing a diff, rather than just the lines that changed. Plus it's nice to have go-to-definition when reviewing.
Depending on what I'm doing with it I have 3 modes:
Trivial/easy stuff - let it make a PR at the end and review in GitHub. It rarely gets this stuff wrong IME or does anything stupid.
Moderately complex stuff - let it code away, review/test it in my IDE and make any changes myself and tell claude what I've changed (and get it to do a quick review of my code)
Complex stuff - watch it like a hawk as it is thinking and interrupt it constantly asking questions/telling it what to do, then review in my IDE.
Apparently they are, which is crazy to me. Zed agent mode shows modified hunks and you can accept/reject them individually. I can't imagine doing it all through the CLI, it seems extremely primitive.
Yes, it shows you the file diff. But generally, the workflow is that you git commit a checkpoint, then let it make all the changes it wants freely, then in your IDE, review what has changed since previous commit, iterate the prompts/make your own adjustments to the code, and when you like it, git commit.
If there’s a conflict you just back out your change and do it again.
I just accept all and review in my editor.
I review and modify changes in Zed or Emacs.
that's what lazygit in another terminal tab is for
thats not a fair comparision CC is
agentic tool + anthropic subsidized pricing.
Second part is why it has "exploded"
As far as I can tell, terminal agents are inferior to hosted agents in sandboxed/imaged environments when it comes to concurrent execution and far inferior to assisted ide in terms of UX so what exactly is the point?. The "UI niceties" is the whole point of using cursor and somehow, everyone else sucks at it.
Not sure what you mean. "Hosted agents in sandboxed/imaged environments"? The entire selling point of CC is that you can do
- > curl -fsSL http://claude.ai/install.sh | bash
- > claude
- > OAuth to your Anthropic account
Done. Now you have a SOTA agentic AI with pretty forgiving usage limits up and running immediately. This is why it's capturing developer mindshare. The simplicity of getting up and going with it is a selling point.
Plus it’s straightforward to make Claude Code run agents in parallel/background just like Codex and Cursor, in local sandboxes: https://github.com/dagger/container-use
You’re missing the point tho. The point of the cli agent is that it’s a building block to put this thing everywhere. Look at CCs GitHub plugin, it’s great
CC on github just looks like Codex. I see your point, but it seems like all the big players basically have a CLI agent and most of them think that its just an implementation detail so they dont expose it.
Forking an IDE is not expensive if it's the core product of a company with a $900M ARR.
I doubt MS has ever made $900M off of VS Code.
"The same editor you already use for free, but with slightly nicer UI for some AI stuff" is not a $900M ARR product.
$900m in revenue is easy if you're selling a dollar for <$1. Feels like that's what cursor's $20/m "unlimited" plan is
"Some AI stuff" can well be worth that.
It's another Character.ai situation [0]. Unfortunate for any employees who aren't founders or researchers, as they don't get any payout or a nice new job from this exit structure. In fact they lose their whole time invested at the company.
What a harsh time to work for an AI startup as a rank and file employee! I wonder how the founders justify going along with it inside their mind.
[0] Character.ai CEO Noam Shazeer Returns to Google https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41141112 - 11 months ago (87 comments)
Edit: Thank you @jonny_eh for the clarification. I can't imagine it feels awesome being a leftover but at least you vested out. "Take the money and leave" is still a bit raw when the founders and researchers are now getting the initial payout + generous Google RSU's.
The “leftover” employees at Character were NOT screwed over. Options were converted to cash at the deal’s valuation.
Hopefully Windsurf employees are treated well here.
Note: I worked at Character until recently.
On the flipside, I’m pretty sure the investors got screwed.
The investors made money too. The valuation at the last round was $1B, and Google paid them out at a valuation of $2.5B as part of the agreement [1].
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/2/24212348/google-hires-char...
Honestly depends on when they got in. Seed investors? They're probably fine with their preferences. Series B and beyond? That's where it gets messy. What round you thinking?
It's literally the opposite - seed investors get paid last with the exception of common.
Hopefully. The world is healing.
Whose cash? OpenAI isn't paying, and Google isn't paying, and Windsurf investors already paid.
I wasn’t referring to Windsurf. But if there was no cash involved here, then ya, the employees were screwed. Do we know that’s the case though?
The rank and file equity pitch is quickly falling apart…
Think it started that way... I'm currently in a vesting/allocation situation where the incentive is to drive the share price down.
Geeeeeze
Always has been
FYI, It wasn't taken the money and leave, a lot of them got absorbed into GDM.
Source: I was in GDM when character was acquired.
Do you mean Google Deep Mind? Curious what use deep mind had for the leftovers (kubernetes and web scraping experts, etc)?
Otherwise why not merge all of engineering into ElGoog?
> Unfortunate for any employees who aren't founders or researchers, as they don't get any payout or a nice new job from this exit structure. In fact they lose their whole time invested at the company.
Windsurf’s value didn’t go to $0 overnight. The company will continue and their equity is likely still worth a decent amount wherever the company ends up.
Obviously a disappointing outcome for the people who thought life changing money was right around the corner, but they didn’t lose everything.
Just like with Character I'm assuming the employees get something. Whatever nonsense "licensing" fee Google is paying to not cause an antitrust investigation should be paid out straight to employees
Not really true, I believe the "acquiring" (i.e. Google) company buys some equity from the employees (windsurf).
Edit: the people downvoting this clearly can't read, I made the exact same point as jonny_eh.
The acquisition of Windsurf was cancelled.
Instead they are paying 2.4B to "license" windsurfs IP. Still a loss vs OpenAI but at least the employees will get cash not openai stock.
This might be the beginning of the end of tech VC startups in general.
High interest rates make VC funding more expensive and now bigtech can swoop in, poach all the necessary staff and deprive investors of an exit.
What is the point any more?
Isn't there not some contractual agreement between the VCs and the founders? (I understand that a non-compete might not apply [in CA], but taking VC money is a little different that simply getting hired).
Were I a Windsurf investor, I'd be pissed right now and calling my lawyer.
the founder is on a vesting schedule set with the vc. walking away forfeits his ownership in the company (not sure of the specifics of this weird deal, but this is true in 99% of situations) which returns his ownership to the VCs either directly or functionally.
the only reason he'd walk away is because he thinks other opportunities are higher EV. if he believes this, a) the investors investment is likely worth virtually 0 anyway and b) if it's not, removing a leader who doesn't want to be there probably increases P(success) for the company and further increases the value of the investment.
founder departure isn't good for the narrative, but it's a symptom of an investment going bad, not often a cause.
The low level employees are screwed. Basically they lost their job. Not cool.
Cursor (and Garry Tan’s X post) has shown us that the VC money is propping up these companies astounding growth, the only way for them to become profitable is to increase the cost per a request, which means they need to innovate like crazy.
The moat is paper thin.
GitHub has open sourced copilot.
The open source community is working hard on their own projects.
No doubt Cursor is moving fast to create amazing innovations, but if the competition only focuses on thin wrappers they are not worth the billion dollar valuations.
I love watching this space as it is moving extremely fast.
There is no moat. If you’re a true believer that strong agents are around the corner, then all of these add on companies will be obsolete in a few years. The first company to strong agents can trivially rebuild Cursor or Windsurf.
If you believe AGI is around the corner, doesn’t it mean it’ll replace ALL products?
So grifting for investor cash and revenue right now is the obvious play either way
Cursor just committed mass consumer fraud at worst, and at best pissed off all their best customers. I feel really sorry for those who invested at a 9bb valuation.
> I feel really sorry for those who invested at a 9bb valuation.
Because they didn't do their jobs properly?
>Cursor just committed mass consumer fraud at worst, and at best pissed off all their best customers.
What happened?
flip-flopping on pricing has led users to feel nickel-and-dimed
i like cursor fine, but check out the forum/subreddit to see people talking like addicts, pissed their fix is getting more expensive
i think this aggressive reaction is more pronounced for non-programmers who are making things for the first time. they tasted a new power and they don't want it taken away.
I agree with your take, but I still don't excuse anti consumer practices like that. It annoys me because this is a repeat problem in this space, where these companies don't take into account the market dynamics, or costs of their service. From the start I've been looking at these $20.00 subscriptions, and then my own personal api per token costs and been wondering how they aren't all bankrupt.
Look no further than founders in the sports betting space, like the fanduel founders. Borrow a bunch of money at huge valuations because of hype and ignore the fact, that despite it being exciting and popular, the margins are like <5%. Fanduel founders sold for 400 something million, walked away with nothing. Its now a multibillion dollar company when the new owners realized the product was marketing, not the vig. These AI companies are shifting towards their "marketing" eras.
No I’m a programmer and I’m better about the rug pull also.
What was Garry's post?
https://x.com/garrytan/status/1941553682736439307
The thesis is that once you’re paying $200 a month, you’re beholden and won’t pay and compare it with anything else.
I have same question
I think the recent Grok release and considering xAI was relatively late to the game shows that the only moat to training giant models is how many GPUs you can buy. ChatGPT was earth-shattering and it took less than two years for multiple credible competitors to match or exceed them. Making these models profitable is proving extremely difficult in the face of so much competition and such unsustainable expectations being set. Google seems to be most likely to sustain themselves through this melee. Them and the Chinese companies.
Gary gives off a grifter vibe to me. Such a shame seeing how YC has fallen
He blocked me (a relative nobody) on X for remarking on the number of people I know who’ve made it to YC on completely fraudulent credentials.
I never knew anyone who used Windsurf. These AI acquisitions have been unbelievable(in a bad way). WIX acquired some garbage Lovable.dev clone for 80 million. I think many of us are waiting for this bubble to pop(economy will likely pop too)
It was barely better than Cursor and they got shafted by Anthropic because of the takeover announcement so nobody really used it anymore because let's face it - Claude Sonnet is just the best coding model. Design-wise the chat panel and autocomplete integration was a bit nicer than in Cursor but not by much. Subscription for Windsurf was/is also 5$ cheaper.
i don't think it was better than or comparable to cursor at all. except for the month prior to the OpenAI Acquisition news where some minor influencers on X were calling it better.
if it was better it would have survived.
The first time they hit the news, I’ve tried to open their website to see what it was all about and it froze my phone lol
Everyone has a niche, Windsurf is the only large provider if you are a Jetbrains shop.
There are some alternatives like continue.dev or Jetbrains own AI offering but no Cursor or Claude Code ( Sonnet 3.7/4) you can get through Jetbrains plugin or others, but Anthropic does not provide support same with cursor.
claude code has a Jetbrains plugin which is delightful!
Seems a recent launch in beta just in June .
Thanks for the share !
Well I use Windsurf. It's a good alternative to GitHub Copilot. The free tier is on par with Copilot's paid plan.
...which no one talks about anymore. Okay I guess you have a point.
Base44 is absolutely not garbage. I’ve tried it and can say it’s as good or better of a vibe-builder than Lovable or Bolt. Have you benchmarked it against the competition or can you otherwise substantiate the “garbage” claim? FWIW I do know one amazing engineer using Windsurf
all those projects are garbage and just create half bake prototypes that never see the light of day
Agree in principle, but when evaluated against the competition and likely acquisition targets of Wix, it's certainly not garbage. I've seen it vibe code an entire app that was -- admittedly mostly working -- and deploy it with a prompt of 5 words, in about 2 minutes.
[dead]
So Google, Meta, and Microsoft will just hollow out the best AI startups of their talent instead of buying them - out of fear of monopoly lawsuits I'm assuming?
Nice plan I guess. Kind of obvious to spot though.
Likely cheaper too. Nothing to pay the original shareholders
Can shareholders sue? I presume the only avenue is IP since that belongs to the company? Or the non-exclusive license somehow negates that? Brutal.
I actually don't know if there's much that can be done unless there's some non-competes in those employees' contracts which are usually not very enforceable outside of finance iirc.
Non competes aren’t enforceable in California but the company owns the IP so I’m curious about this license loophole they are using.
Non competes can definitely be enforceable in California for executives and those with fiduciary responsibilities to a company.
They’re just not enforceable against “rank and file” employees.
The only situation I know of is during a sale of business if the seller agrees. Which is clearly not the case here.
I’m honestly just surprised that the CEO and co-founder decided to walk away from the company and leave behind all these employees he was leading. Especially considering many of them probably joined for lower pay, hoping for a big upside.
Maybe there’s more to the story.
When you want to make a big impact for a big payday, why would this surprise you?
Gentle reminder that more startups die by suicide than homicide, and that an early-stage startup is a total crapshoot.
Yes, startups are always a bit of a gamble, but this feels like a captain abandoning ship while it’s still full of sailors (many of whom have families depending on them).
This really is a whole new level of getting screwed.
You're surprised that a CEO did something that massively financially benefitted them personally at the expense of rank and file employees?
You sweet summer child.
It's been working with software developers with no issues.
“Buying the startup” just means handing over megabucks to do-nothing investors. If Google isn’t buying any product or technology, why should investors get a talent fee?
Do nothing investors who enabled the company to reach this point? Employees who chose lower salaries in expectation of shares being worth something? Come on now.
There are many AI startups and we are just in the beginning of learning how to use them. There will be some stupid company like those you’ve listed that figures out a way to use AI that is far better than any other implementation, and Google, Meta, and Microsoft may go the way of Yahoo and AOL, but we’ll see
Doesn’t seem like it. Antitrust has no teeth so the mega corps are just buying all the talent with life changing cash.
The “talent” is not very talented, trust me. These are the short term whims of very large, increasingly bloated organizations. A leaner startup that knows what it has will not sell so quickly. At least, the odds will soon be in favor of whoever first decides to take that bet.
All of this game of thrones is going to create an amazing documentary if AI capabilities taper off and valuations vaporize.
Are the AI capabilities tapering-off, or commoditized? Building the next Windsurf (iteration 0) doesn't feel it's quite niche anymore.
I think the current valuations imply at least 2 magnitudes of improvement over existing functionality.
I know David Fincher is jumping on his seat
Obviously these things are difficult to tell from the outside
Apparently somebody missed crypto mania between 2019-2022
AI has nothing in common with crypto other than it being hyped a lot. The better comparison is the dot-com bubble.
> AI has nothing in common with crypto other than it being hyped a lot.
Don’t forget all the GPUs. Nvidia always gets its cut.
How did I forget about the GPUs! I have made a grave mistake, please forgive me.
> if AI capabilities taper off
AI growth has slowed to a crawl, and it's priced it self out vs cost of compute.
NVIDIA feels a lot like SUN.
> amazing documentary
Been there, done that: 2001, Startup Dot Com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP4PGjnZwJE
Gary-Marcus-eating-popcorn.gif
> Google will instead hire Windsurf CEO Varun Mohan, cofounder Douglas Chen, and some of Windsurf’s R&D employees and bring them onto the Google DeepMind team, [...] Google will not have any control over nor a stake in Windsurf, but it will take a non-exclusive license to some of Windsurf’s technology. [...] Google didn’t share how much it was paying to bring on the team. OpenAI was previously reported to be buying Windsurf for $3 billion.
Why not an acquisition?
How did Google get Windsurf and investors to agree to this maneuver that decapitated the leadership and key talent, without a big exit event for everyone?
My read of the article: "Here's x% of what OpenAI offered you, you waive legal challenges while we cherry-pick your people and license the tech in their heads, and you can keep the company, and everyone left behind can promote themselves to fill the vacancies."
If they acquire a company they might need approval due to anti-trust.
If the people instead just quit their jobs and start working at Google … nothing to see here.
Works out for Google and the C-suite. Horrible for the employees. These fake-acquisitions are effectively arbitrage against employees, who get left holding nothing. Should be illegal and regulated.
Not sure how the VCs get their cut. I'm guessing that Google can balance it out by participating in rounds for other startups in that VC's porfolio.
I went from Emacs to VS Code, then to Cursor, next to Claude Code, which is so good that I feel like I am having half a dozen junior devs at my fingertips, 24/7.
Since Claude Code is cli based, I reviewed my cli toolset: Migrated from iTerm2 to Ghostty and Tmux, from Cursor to NeoVim (my God is it good!).
Just had a 14h workday with this tooling. It’s so good that I complete the work of weeks and months within days! Absolutely beast.
At this point I am thinking IDEs do not reflect the changing reality of software development. They are designed for navigating project folders, writing / changing files. But I don’t review files that much anymore. I rather write prompts, watch Claude Code create a plan, implement it, even write meaningful commit messages.
Yes I can navigate the project with neovim, yes I can make commits in git and in lazygit, but my task is best spent in designing, planning, prompting, reviewing and testing.
I'm curious to see what you've built with all that extra productivity.
No one ever shares their great and shipped products. AI built slop is for generating hype not revenue or users.
> But I don’t review files that much anymore.
Say no more.
> I don’t review files that much anymore
You don't review the code? Just test it works?
At work we’re encouraged to use AI, so I do. For me the one thing that works well is using it to write one off scripts that do stuff and would be a chore to write.
Usually in 2-3 prompts I can get a python or shell script that reads some file list somewhere, reads some json/csv elsewhere. Combines it in various ways and spits out some output to be ingested by some other pipeline.
I just test this code if it works it’s good.
Never in my life would I put this in a critical system though. When I review these files they are full of tiny errors that would blow up in spectacular manner if the input was slightly off somewhere.
It’s good for what it is. But I’m honestly afraid of production code being vibe coded by these tools.
IDEs were a crutch, and now that crutch has been replaced by a semi-autonomous bot that can fetch and carry.
Do you do all this switching during the workday?
yes vibecoding is addicting like that. but if you are not reviewing any code and simply vibing then in my expreience you'll eventually get stuck in "its still not working" loops beause you have no other context or insight to provide it other than that. Then you have either accept what you have or throw the whole thing out and/or actually read the code . kind of rules out last option because code is now just too far gone with too many special cases hardcoded because AI sucks at abstraction or real software engineering.
> It’s so good that I complete the work of weeks and months within days
and yet you're pulling 14 hour workdays..
That doesn't negate that he is compressing his backlog.
So half a dozen junior devs plus 14h workday. That's a ton of surplus value right there. Hope he's getting a cut!
Well you can't risk Claude quitting overnight. It forgets everything it did the day before and now you have to start over ... must ... finish ... tonight ... within ... context ... window.
i get it... i find the productivity is extremely addictive
Windsurf and Cursor are in the business of reselling ChatGPT and Claude at a loss, but the tech itself is not impressive at all
Those wrappers are gonna go away now that there's Claude Code and Googles CLI thing. They are that much better.
Are they?
Cursor's Accept / Reject feature for each change it makes in each file is nice whereas I have to use a diff tool to review the changes in Claude Code.
Also, if I go down a prompt alley that's a dead end, Cursor has the Restore Checkpoint feature to get back to the original prompt and try a different path. With Claude Code, you had better have committed the code to git, otherwise you end up with a mess you didn't want.
My company pays for both, but I mostly use Cursor unless I know I am doing a new project or some proof of concept, which Claude Code might have an edge on with a more mature TODO list feature.
I got burned too many times from that Restore Checkpoint thing not working right, maybe it's been fixed by now but seems silly to rely on something thats not a literal tool built for the job (version control), not a good shortcut.
It has worked perfectly for me every time, and it’s such a great feature.
I agree. I use claude desktop with MCP and Gemini CLI exclusively. I have 20+ years of writing code, and this is awesome!
This whole situation feels shockingly close to the Meta/Scale situation, where founders and specific employees were plucked out, and effectively gutted any future prospects for the company.
At least in the Scale case there seemed to be some form of payout to employees and equity holders, but this takes it a whole lot further by just throwing out all other employees.
There is supposed to be the concept that “all common stock is the same”. These fake-acquisitions completely undermine that.
I'm not surprised. I started using Windsurf when it came out because I liked its UX better than Cursor's.
However, while Cursor and GH Copilot improved, Windsurf went in the opposite direction. On each update, I started to get more and more issues. The agent often tried to run shell commands, and it hung up, or I found minor UI bugs. One day, I decided to give GH Copilot another chance, and I was surprised by how it evolved, to the point that it worked better than Windsurf for my usage. I don’t know what happened internally at Windsurf, but I notice the degradation as a user. If my case indicates what happened to other users, maybe OpenAI saw declining subscriptions and canceled the deal.
> OpenAI’s deal to buy Windsurf is off, and Google will instead hire Windsurf CEO Varun Mohan, cofounder Douglas Chen, and some of Windsurf’s R&D employees and bring them onto the Google DeepMind team, Google and Windsurf announced Friday.
> Mohan and the Windsurf employees will focus on agentic coding efforts at Google DeepMind and work largely on Gemini. Google will not have any control over nor a stake in Windsurf, but it will take a non-exclusive license to some of Windsurf’s technology.
Sounds to me like they're "hiring" them like one "hires" a consultant?
Why the quotes? Consultants are indeed hired for consulting work to be done.
I don't know anyone who heard or used Windsurf outside the Bay Area. Even Cursor feels very Bay Area bubbly (although that is the market to go after if you're in ai dev tools).
Cursor does add value but it's just a thin layer on top of VSCode so companies could just build that in-house and don't need to acquire. There's no moat there.
Cursor has custom tab and embedding models. And has a lot of distribution / paying users already.
Arguably they have the strongest product moat, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they beat OpenAI in a vertical coding model from that. Easy for them to have users generate evals and have model product feedback loop here.
The tab completion is fast and the best available right now but is still so garbage that I turn it off 99% of the time because the suggestions are mostly noise.
I have the opposite experience, it’s at least 90% correct. For example, if I start writing the name of a function that I just added in a different file, tab will suggest the function, then jump to the top of the file to import it. If I’m changing the way something is called in 5 places, if I change it in the first place, tab will jump to make the same change in the other places. It’s honestly pretty spot on.
Zed tab is a lot worse in comparison (partly because it’s slow)
It's unclear if OpenAI cancelled the deal, or Google poached them? Either way, this season of "OpenAI Drama" is wild. First Meta, now Google. Your turn Amazon / Microsoft.
Apparently OpenAI allowed the deal to expire; likely Google had already been in discussion with Windsurf as I'm sure they knew the deal was likely to die well before today.
I don't know if you noticed but cursors language server aspect that runs the coding edits and stuff like that from a server to the workstation is a lot better than windsurf.
Windsurf phone's home on every code edit that you have and takes on 30% load on your servers or on your workstation depending on what you're running.
I would strongly discourage the use of windsurf on your systems.
Case in point their AI model that they just built.
Funny to see this today.
I'm a rank and file dev at a non-big tech company and I got a call from a Windsurf sales rep this week who I had connected with on LinkedIn the day before (I never gave them my number). They told me my company was in talks with Windsurf about a licensing deal but that they would give me a 30 day trial of an enterprise account for use on personal projects to let me try it in advance. I guess the idea for them is to build enthusiasm among devs in the company?
Is this a standard sales strategy for products like this? It seems pretty aggressive to me but I'm just an engineer so I wouldn't know.
I did not see this coming. Wow. The game of thrones in SV.
I wonder what happened with the OpenAI deal. Anyone have any guesses? My first guess is "Look at Claude Code, we can do this ourselves." But, I am likely thinking too simply.
edit: does this mean that Windsurf and its users will stop being iced-out by Anthropic? Or, is this the end of Windsurf?
Derp. Weird IP sharing issues.
> I did not see this coming. Wow. The game of thrones in SV.
You must be new around here.
I have been using Windsurf for few months. They even have their own AI model SWE-1 model. I really liked using Windsurf. They also have integrations with other IDEs ex: jetbrains, VS code, etc.
This week I have been using Claude Code and Windsurf side by side. I would make change with one, stash it, ask the other for similar change and then would diff it.
Overall Windsurf was pretty on a par with Claude code.
OpenAI needs to up their game on Codex to be on par with Claude Code. o3 is a better planner relative to Opus.
Where do you think Codex lags behind Claude Code?
This certainly aligns with my own usage. I'm currently using OpenAI's own Codex 50:1 compared to Windsurf. For me, I'd rather take some time to create a good quality prompt and have it work away for a few minutes and create a material delta. It isn't always perfect, and I often have to make a few tweaks myself, but it is much nicer and waiting around and watching Windsurf bang around on a tiny part of the solution. Windsurf is still nice to use for quick UI iteration however.
Nice to get a sanity check that confirms Windsurf was never really worth $3B to all those who thought that number was ridiculous.
When Claude kind of cut them off, they realized these AI Agentic tools are as good as your model, little to no moat here.
And it was a crazy deal to begin with, for reference JetBrains who's building IDEs for 24 years are evaluated at $7 billions
This sounds terrible if they're just taking management and key employees?
Imagine backing this startup and the founder team takes a parachute...
For the love of God, can we get a reboot of the Silicon Valley television show? Just on AI. Like when they wrapped it, they wrapped it on AI usage. So, it's got the perfect arc for a reboot that focuses perfectly on AI.
Even the original Silicon Valley didn’t match the zaniness of real life. Why do we need a reboot? Just check HN!
My favorite thing about that series was watching it with friends who weren't from the Bay Area. Often they'd be laughing at the sheer absurdity of a situation, and I'd get to point out that it was barely exaggerated from real life.
That's what my friends not from SF said. "This is insane, this would never happen"
Dude, I saw a lot crazier things happen on a monthly basis. And don't even get me started on the personal lives and partying that the show didn't display.
Just curious - would this negatively affect OpenAI's ability to acquire companies in the future?
This isn’t a great look for OpenAI, but acquisitions fall through all the time.
The issue isn’t an acquisition not working out, it’s that the founding/exec team felt it appropriate to arrange their own exits and abandon their team before even communicating that their “successful exit” wasn’t actually happening.
They have got get their act together from a structure standpoint or these types of acquisitions are going keep failing.
How long does Windsurf go on now? Losing your CEO to a poach job not even an acquihire must blow up any fund raising plans.
How does this happens?
They raised A, B, and C round (according to CrunchBase), and then the founders just walk away and get a job/deal at Google?
Perhaps it as combination of how much founders were diluted and how much they are being offered upfront. We are hearing about $100M signing bonuses.
It is hard to say no when Google/Meta gives you say $100M upfront and hundreds more if not Billion+ in RSUs. After 3 rounds it is not unreasonable to have only 5-10%.
10% of a company worth a few billion burning a lot of cash, that needs to keep raising more rounds i.e more dilution, may have less value than RSUs from multi-trillion dollar publicly traded liquid tech company today.
It is also quite hard to raise $5-10+Billion in cash. There are only handful of startups which have ever done so
Very few funds/investors can afford to do so large rounds. This was SoftBank's thesis for most of last decade, compete by just outfunding competing products in a market.
Nepotism.
The same set of rules that apply to you and me are not universal.
According to The Information, Microsoft gaining access to Windsurf’s IP if OpenAI acquired them was a factor: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/openai-windsurf-brea... (paywalled)
I don't understand why Windsurf would care after they've exited.
Not Windsurf… OpenAI. And OpenAI cares because they’re competing (in part) against Copilot, so if Msoft gets all the benefits of Windsurf then OpenAI would effectively be paying 3B to feed their competitor.
This would also happen if OpenAI developed the same thing internally, right? I don't see how not acquiring them improves anything.
Are these "acquihire & license" the new M&A...? I recall hearing that this was a "hack" to avoid DOJ and FTC scrutiny over acquisitions, but I have no clue how such deals are structured. Anyone care to chime in?
Bullet dodged.
Windsurf's value to OpenAI was for the latter to "see the whole chessboard" of context, which is helpful when you're training models to be good at coding.
But codex (and Claude Code) fulfill this from the CLI, and it's a first-party utility, not an acquisition.
https://archive.is/Rdt3z
Pour one out for the regular employees not getting absorbed by Google and suddenly not millionaires like they imagined they were a week ago.
Maybe the expectation that a job leading to an equity windfall is something people should be more cautious about.
It's something you should never assume is true until the wire hits your account. I had a deal where I was going to make $15 million called off 36 hours before closing.
Like in WeCrashed (2022)?
nonexclusive proprietary licensing at its zenith
I wonder if this is a result of the previously reported clashes between OpenAI and Microsoft over access to the Windsurf IP (under their investment agreement)
I really think that Apple is smart to sideline this shitshow.
This.
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So the result of aggressively scrutinizing big tech acquisitions is acquihires, not a more competitive tech ecosystem with say more IPO’s.
The libertarian spin on this would be government should have never scrutinized acquisitions and the result is just worse for everyone.
The progressive spin would be to now ban acquihires somehow, and then whatever new legal invention will be created next. I can imagine the next step being, creating a consulting company out of your startup and then selling yourself as consultants to big techs. Now you are neither acquired nor technically acqui-hired and the whackamole continues.
At some point, we need to realize the solution is the culture of people involved. If the government could just ask to reduce acquisitions to make the ecosystem more competitive and companies tried following it in spirit to the best of their ability, we might have much better results than whatever we have now. When culture degrades, the govt can’t trust companies, the companies can’t trust the govt, everything just gets worse, regardless of what rules you write and enforce.
The culture of the people involved got us to this point, I’m not sure it’s the solution to the problem.
> The progressive spin would be to now ban acquihires somehow, and then whatever new legal invention will be created next.
Progressive has become a moving target, but the pro-competition view would be to break up the massively concentrated companies that are further consolidating markets. Thats what the Khan FTC was trying to do, but we need a Congress interested in a competitive marketplace, which we haven’t had in a while.
This wasn't a result of regulator scrutiny. The issue was that MS (owner of Copilot) was demanding access to the IP (due to their existing agreement with OpenAI), and OpenAI was resisting. In addition, Claude blocked access to Windsurf, which also damaged them as an acquisition target.
Nothing to do with regulators.
I find this hard to believe considering all the recent acquihires that happened recently like Character AI, Inflection, Covariant AI, Scale AI, context AI and so on. Maybe you’re right about the specifics of this situation, but my prior for this being an acquihire is very high and I would need to see very compelling evidence that that is not the case.
Could anyone explain the implications of this for Windsurf as a company? Are they going to close?
Nothing for certain, but yes. The IP payout is to give the investors something.
I wonder how these two events came to be declared in the same news release.
Honestly there's no value that windsurf, cursor and all the other VSCode forks provide that couldn't be provided as an extension and even then - none of them perform as well for agentic coding as Cline / Roo Code (debates about the subscription pricing aside due to people often not realising their model limits, public US only based APIs, pay for useful API limits etc aside).
The title made sense until the comma, and then it didn’t :)
The founders fucked over the employees and the investors and sold out. I guess they don’t care if they are worth $200M each but they fucked every employee that poured their heart out into that company.
I hope no one works for them again.
This is why working for startups is not worth it.
@dang - The title’s wording suggest that OpenAI’s CEO is leaving, not Windsurf. A more accurate title might be: “Windsurf’s deal with OpenAI is off, and its CEO is going to Google”
What if OpenAI is buying Cursor instead?
Not out of the question after a week of Cursor just absolutely torching goodwill
Could you elaborate or provide more context for those who don't use Cursor?
I'm assuming it's this:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44538243
Does anyone know which side cancelled the deal?
Looks like Sama can’t catch a break.
I only learned this week that “sama” is “Sam Altman” and not the first name of some other ai startup ceo
It's his hackernews username.
Well, more actively nowadays, it's his X username...
Good.
sama is nothing without drama
This deal always looked strange in the first place. The usage of Windsurf was significantly lower than Cursor and Copilot and somehow it was worth $3B.
Given the release of Claude Code, it was already over for them.
Smart move, I always wonder if they have disposable money to spend on stuff like this and figure out what to do with it after.
Zuck swoops in and hire them 100mm a piece.
and Windsurf employees have worthless equity and no CEO
loool dead
What is the source Verge? Give us a link more than "Google and Windsurf announced Friday"
Lol.
I commented on the OG thread something like "weird since MSFT owns VS Code" and got downvoted to oblivion.
Yet here we are, always right :).
https://archive.today/urwCT
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C-level executives get paid. Labor gets stuck grinding at Google. What a waste. Google will probably shelve/hoard the IP from Windsurf.