I have a big 49" wide screen monitor and sharing my screen in Google Meet was cumbersome because you can only share a window or the whole screen, but not a screen region.
So I wrote a small tool that uses the xrandr extension to mirror an area to a virtual monitor which then can be shared.
The code is a little weird. There is no XLib event loop. It calls sleep(100) in a loop until it hits SIGINT. That will have high cpu usage for no reason.
It will not, even adding just a 1ms sleep in a loop will drop CPU usage to barely noticeable levels, 10 wakes a second is barely anything for any CPU from the past 3 decades.
It's an irrelevant implementation detail. This is for a live call. You are streaming video at the same time, so there's no point in worrying about idling.
I'd even say that it's a good example for others, because the equivalent code with the event loop would be slightly more complicated (maybe 5 more lines?). Striving for "doing things right" when the wrong thing is perfectly appropriate would be a bad example.
My guess is that somebody coded that event-loop-less X client not really familiar with the language and how to write Xlib apps. I partially assume this because C, C++ and especially Xlib are becoming less popular over time, so finding skilled practitioners to write it idiomatically is relatively rare now. This basic event loop stuff is something that maybe belongs in a library. So they just wrote library grade functionality themselves, badly. The commentary here is getting defensive about doing things the wrong way, coming up with lots of post hoc justification.
Not my experience at all. Granted I haven't tried writing a loop like this in 20ish years, because once you spot that mistake you don't tend to make it again, and CPUs are better now.
Another thing to note is when you call sleep with a low value it may decide not to sleep at all, so this loop just might be constantly doing syscalls in a tight loop.
> Not my experience at all. Granted I haven't tried writing a loop like this in 20ish years, because once you spot that mistake you don't tend to make it again, and CPUs are better now.
You can trivially verify it by running the following, I have personally been using "sleep for 1ms in a loop to prevent CPU burn" for years and never noticed it having any impact, it's not until I go into microseconds when I can start noticing my CPU doing more busy work.
> Another thing to note is when you call sleep with a low value it may decide not to sleep at all, so this loop just might be constantly doing syscalls in a tight loop.
On what system? AFAIK, if your sleep time is low enough, it will round up to whatever is the OS clock resolution multiple, not skip the sleep call completely. On Linux, it will use nanosleep(2) and I cannot see any mention of the sleep not suspending the thread at all with low values.
If memory serves, Windows treats a sleep under the scheduler quantum length as a yield. It may take you off the cpu if there's something else to run but it may not. Meanwhile burning up cycles may prevent low power states.
At any rate, back to the code at hand, there are many ways to block on SIGINT without polling. But it's also hugely odd that this code does not read events from the X11 socket while it does so. This is code smell, and a poorly behaved X client.
You can't find that proof because Linux does the opposite. Unless your task is SCHED_REALTIME, all timers have a little bit of slack at the end that allows the kernel to group wakeup events. You can configure this (for non-RT tasks) with prctl(PR_SET_TIMERSLACK).
Yes, but I believe op was refering to how interacting with all things Wayland seems to be more involved than with x11. I'm not sure this is indeed like this, I have zero experience in developing for Wayland, but I think this is what op meant.
Wayland is more focused on security. That onion layer right there will increase the complexity of usage. X11 doesn't have the extra abstractions to limit and prevent intrusive interactions with the desktop.
Example of this would be where "runas /user:smith application.exe" is simple but does not work when a Windows Service is required to run an application as the user signed in. One must use Window's API to pull in the account's token and use more API to execute "application.exe". UltraVNC is a great source to see all the extras needed.
From a quick "how do I implement this in Python" with ChatGPT it seems to be about 30 lines, since most of the heavy lifting is done for you by the API.
As someone who uses LLM's regularly to assist in code creation, take that output with a huge grain of salt until you've actually tested it. Especially as it relates to Wayland, I've pulled my hair out trying to get an LLM to assist with very similar tasks to this.
there's very little code because there's very little error handling / sanity checking.
not saying X11 isn't hackable and cool, but a lot of code gets bloated and complex (and robust!) by not assuming perfect usage.
True. If something goes wrong this will just crash. But to be fair, the only error handling I could think of would probably just exit with a vague error message... Pull requests to make it more robust welcome anyway!
To the parent, splitbrain just got you to QA this for him. The true cost of software is the maintenance and QA, and he got you to do free work, and here I am doing free work writing about it. How hard we BOTH just got pwned! </joke>
haha yeah, its ok for a tool its really cool honestly :p just commenting on the 'so little code' might be good to check if the x y etc. are within the screen / set resolution perhaps.
This certainly is an elegant X.org party trick that can't be done easily in almost any other windowing system: creating a virtual Xrandr display that overlaps with existing physical displays. It's slightly awkward since if it exits outside of sigint it will leave a virtual output and no overlay window but that's a pretty minor issue. (All of that having been said, I would strongly advise to not over-index on SLoC as a measure of quality or elegance.)
This flat-out can't be done in Wayland. Though all is not lost, you might not need this at all in Wayland. The standard way to capture the screen from an unprivileged process in Wayland is through desktop portals, and at least KDE supports a wide variety of different capture options including capturing a rectangle of the screen. I haven't tried, but I suspect this is even true when running X.org applications, thanks to XWaylandVideoBridge.
I am not really thrilled about D-Bus stuff everywhere, but it is nice that you can pretty much override any screen capture behavior you want by changing the org.freedesktop.impl.portal.ScreenCast implementation: I think that's actually a step in a better direction versus having every application implement its own functionality for selecting capture targets.
To me it's quite sad that for a lot of things, the "standard" way of doing something is not actually part of the standard (XDG portals, third party protocols, etc.). Yes, X.org is old, bloated, unmaintainable and whathever, but at least every desktop environment used the same X server implementation and the same tools worked everywhere.
Besides the duplication of efforts in implementing the same stuff over and over, now someone developing somewhat non-trivial programs needs to be aware of the differences in supported features and non-standard extensions in all desktops, for example [1].
I think Wayland had made some mistakes, no doubt. Cursor shape just should've been part of the protocol. Wayland has its fair share of misfires.
That said, I understand what they were going for. They really wanted to make the compositor as small and simple as possible, so for example you would just use libwayland-cursor instead of bothering with cursors yourself. However there are a lot of ways libwayland-cursor worked out poorly... Not everyone agreed on how scaling should work, GTK4 ditched it for performance reasons, and overall it's just inconvenient for a lot of cases (languages other than C, sandboxing, etc.) And to make matters even worse, in practice every compositor needed to load and handle XCursor themes anyways...
That said, I think that it's okay if Wayland doesn't own the majority of the Linux desktop stack the way X11 did. It's fine for compositors and their helpers to implement protocols from other projects, too. That way Wayland can be more applicable to graphical machines other than desktops without bringing unnecessary baggage. It'll always have trade-offs, of course, but I think it's far from the end of the world.
Wayland intentionally makes this more difficult, because one of the security goals of the project is that (by default) Wayland clients shouldn't have visibility into other clients' window contents/events/etc.
Of course, it still needs to be possible under Wayland, because there are plenty of legitimate use-cases (screenshots, screen sharing, video capture, etc.), but it was a non-goal to make it as simple as X.
Yeah. I mean, not to deny the decades of arguments over its warts, but it's kind of amazing to me the extent to which X11 has emerged as, well, the simplest/best and most hackable desktop graphics environment available. You want to play a trick, it's right there. The ICCCM got a ton of hate back in the early 90's, but... no one else has an equivalent and people still innovate in the WM space even today.
I find it very interesting how much our threat model has changed in the last 10-15 years. We no longer trust even local software, as we have to assume everything is now malicious. Commercial software from "reputable" companies can't be trusted to not pull a ton of analytics and personal data off your computer. We now have to worry about every piece of software being a keylogger and spying on other windows/applications and reporting back.
We've had to give up so much flexibility. Wayland certainly focuses on plugging this hole, but it means we've lost all these cool utilities like this one. There was just so much you could do with devilspie, xdotool, and others to make sure my operating system and window environment worked for me.
I still really miss X11's Zaphod mode, where you had two independent X sessions (:0.0 and :0.1) on two different monitors, with different window managers and different windowing rules.
I miss the days of being able to trust my computer and trust my software.
If you can't trust your locally installed software, everything is lost. I understand where this new threat model comes from for some people but I'd rather continue to avoid bad software sources than hamstring my OS in the hopes of avoiding malware I installed on purpose.
I agree. But can you trust Zoom? What about Office or Photoshop? Can you trust Websites or your browser anymore? Even open source apps have analytics in them that may not be trustworthy anymore (firefox, audacity, ...).
I teach online for a living, and -- yep Zoom through FIREFOX only.
Coincidentally, it's also the best experience, for whatever reason it's the only on that supports virtual backgrounds on Linux for me? Neither Chrome nor Desktop seem to work for this.
FWIW, the threat model you're imagining is an attacker being able to run code to display directly to the desktop using the lowest level native API. A local[1] code exploit at the level of an interactive user is already a huge failure in the modern world.
Is that a reasonable argument against using X11? Sure, for some use cases. Is it a good argument for wayland/windows/OSX/whatever to do your tiling WM experimentation? Not really, those environments kinda suck for playing around with.
[1] Or "local-ish", your system or a trusted remote has to have been compromised already. Untrusted X11 protocol still exists but is deliberately disabled (and often blocked) everywhere. Even ssh won't forward it anymore unless you dig out the option and turn it on manually.
Isn't any app that can access read the x11 socket able to read any input? It's not just running an explicitly malicious app but also the risk of compromising an app which can read the x11 socket (e.g. Firefox)
It's also why there existed more advanced security extensions for X11 (like security labels for windows), but also why even bare-bones X11 had methods to ensure that only one specific application was getting input, specifically to handle secure input like with passwords.
Yes, exactly. I'm just saying that the response to a remote browser exploit in firefox is more likely to be "YIKES ZERO DAY IN FIREFOX!!!!!" and not "well it's a good thing we're running it in windows so it can't screenshot other apps or inject key events".
It's not like it's not a valid argument, just that it's sort of a nitpick. Security is hard, and defense in depth is a thing, but this particular attack surface is way, way back in the "depth" stack for a modern app deployment.
Javascript has managed to even ruin the linux desktop. Running every random JS application sent to your browser VM makes the browser insecure which means the entire computer can't be trusted. This is the reason things like the waylands enforce a smartphone like model of security where the user's applications aren't allowed to communicate or interact with other elements of the graphical desktop. Applications aren't trusted. So the user isn't trusted. A trade-off not worth it.
Huh? What are you trying to say? There's no conflict between distrusting applications and trusting the user. Even on Android (which is pretty paranoid these days), you, the user, can still opt to trust apps with things like accessibility API access and background location.
Why exactly should we perpetuate the insecure old single-privilege-level desktop model?
X11 is the opposite of simple and hackable. What you are thinking of as "hackable" is actually the result of it having a ton of legacy features that enable users to do neat tricks.
Wayland breaks a lot of these tools because it is so much simpler than X.
By window manager started out as ~50 lines of Ruby copying an equivalent amount of C.
You can say many things about Wayland, but it's "simple" from a point of view I for one really do not care about. Wayland may be "simple" in some respects, but it makes most of the things I care about doing unnecessarily complex.
Lacking features isn't the same thing as "simpler", Wayland is great, but is very much a subset of the features implemented on an X11 desktop. Wayland doesn't do selections or provide any IPC mechanism of its own, much less something like an ICCCM that allows you to identify/target other users of the desktop and interact with them in a flexible way. In fact as I understand it the linked tool is in fact impossible to write in Wayland.
Again, this isn't the fault of "Wayland", which is just a compositor framework. The complaint is that the ecosystem of "desktop" software which evolved around Wayland is an ad hoc monstrosity that lacks the unified structure that its ancestor had way back in the X11R5 days.
Do I understand correctly that you could to this with OBS on any platform, including Wayland? I'm reading many comments that make me think either many people don't know about OBS, or I'm overestimating it's abilities.
It can do that, yes, but it's a bit more work. There are several GUI hoops you'll have to run through to get that to work, and if you have to adjust it each and every time, before a meeting, then it would become burdensome. But yes, it can be done.
I don't understand, what is the significance of a 20kb binary? The only person using this would be someone who takes Zoom meetings on a company-issued computer and I can't imagine such machines are disk space-constrained.
With OBS, you can add an entire screen to your canvas and then add a filter to crop it down to a particular part of that screen. This nets you the same results as the small C++ tool being proposed here.
Also, I remember a friend showing me in Zoom that you can share not just one but multiple screens/windows—press the SHFT key while clicking the windows you want to share.
Built it and took a fullscreen screenshot with GIMP to figure out the width/height/x/y coordinates I wanted and tested with Google Meet. Working perfectly!
https://github.com/naelstrof/slop Can also use a utility like this one, which lets you select an area of the screen and output it in a specified format.
Can someone explain why this is still an unmet need within the current video conference platforms? Giant monitors have become increasingly common-especially for the developers who might be working on these tools.
We, as engineers, can't expect everyone to know what OBS is, download it, learn in, and use it every day to enable their ability to share a sub-section of their monitor (regardless of its size.)
We, as engineers, _are_ expected to make our software easier to use and feature rich. Adding this capability into Zoom or Meet, etc. is a reasonable thing to expect from a software company of note. And people _do_ know what Zoom and Meet are, download them, learn them, and use them every day. Why not implement the feature directly into the software they're already using?
This is surely useful right now. I wonder what will happens to all the nice X11 tools once Wayland (hopefully soon) will be the golden standard. There are options to enable X11 behaviors in Wayland but I guess that is just a fallback to the insecure implementation.
I wouldn't mind switching between windows if I could use the GNOME Activities overview for that. But maybe that is not possible because there is no way to communicate the change in stream size if the windows have different sizes?
Wasn't the same thing posted for MacOS a few days back, can't recall the name? Looking at the time on the repo makes me think the author pushed after seeing people requesting something similar for Linux.
That's not quite the same. With DeskPad you have to move the window to the virtual monitor. clipscreen allows you to select a portion of your screen without moving any windows.
I use "Advanced Screen Share" for this purpose. it has a one time purchase if you want to remove a small overlay but it gets the job done and is installable through the app store.
you can just share multiple windows on the newest macOS and they will ne nicely arranged for viewers. You can even add the presenter thing to show your face next to them.
I don't know if std::condition_variable is async-signal safe, but an easy fix is to replace the sleeping with pause(2). There's also sigwait(3), which wouldn't need a signal handler.
That s very cool... Speaking of which: any easy way to allow two people, both on X, to both share and interact (keyboard and mouse) with a common X window?
The app that we d like to share and both control is a browser (running on a machine on our LAN) so a browser extension would work too I guess.
I think there was some way to do that with existing tools. I forget the details because I only threw it together as a bit of fun novelty. I think the terms to google are x2x and multiseat though, at least to start your search…
I have a big 49" wide screen monitor and sharing my screen in Google Meet was cumbersome because you can only share a window or the whole screen, but not a screen region.
So I wrote a small tool that uses the xrandr extension to mirror an area to a virtual monitor which then can be shared.
See my blog post for some more details: https://www.splitbrain.org/blog/2024-10/11-introducing_clips...
I love how simple this is- Barely 100 lines or C++ (ignoring comments). That's one thing that makes me prefer X11 over Wayland.
The code is a little weird. There is no XLib event loop. It calls sleep(100) in a loop until it hits SIGINT. That will have high cpu usage for no reason.
It will not, even adding just a 1ms sleep in a loop will drop CPU usage to barely noticeable levels, 10 wakes a second is barely anything for any CPU from the past 3 decades.
This is what the pause(2) syscall was made for, waiting for a signal forever.
It’s a good way to drain your battery on mobile devices, even if usage looks low.
Not that this matters for this particular tool.
> Not that this matters for this particular tool.
Then the code is perfectly appropriate.
It's a bad example for others and a bad habit to get into. If every program did this, we'd have trouble getting CPUs into deep idle states.
It's an irrelevant implementation detail. This is for a live call. You are streaming video at the same time, so there's no point in worrying about idling.
I'd even say that it's a good example for others, because the equivalent code with the event loop would be slightly more complicated (maybe 5 more lines?). Striving for "doing things right" when the wrong thing is perfectly appropriate would be a bad example.
My guess is that somebody coded that event-loop-less X client not really familiar with the language and how to write Xlib apps. I partially assume this because C, C++ and especially Xlib are becoming less popular over time, so finding skilled practitioners to write it idiomatically is relatively rare now. This basic event loop stuff is something that maybe belongs in a library. So they just wrote library grade functionality themselves, badly. The commentary here is getting defensive about doing things the wrong way, coming up with lots of post hoc justification.
Not my experience at all. Granted I haven't tried writing a loop like this in 20ish years, because once you spot that mistake you don't tend to make it again, and CPUs are better now.
Another thing to note is when you call sleep with a low value it may decide not to sleep at all, so this loop just might be constantly doing syscalls in a tight loop.
> Not my experience at all. Granted I haven't tried writing a loop like this in 20ish years, because once you spot that mistake you don't tend to make it again, and CPUs are better now.
You can trivially verify it by running the following, I have personally been using "sleep for 1ms in a loop to prevent CPU burn" for years and never noticed it having any impact, it's not until I go into microseconds when I can start noticing my CPU doing more busy work.
> Another thing to note is when you call sleep with a low value it may decide not to sleep at all, so this loop just might be constantly doing syscalls in a tight loop.On what system? AFAIK, if your sleep time is low enough, it will round up to whatever is the OS clock resolution multiple, not skip the sleep call completely. On Linux, it will use nanosleep(2) and I cannot see any mention of the sleep not suspending the thread at all with low values.
If memory serves, Windows treats a sleep under the scheduler quantum length as a yield. It may take you off the cpu if there's something else to run but it may not. Meanwhile burning up cycles may prevent low power states.
At any rate, back to the code at hand, there are many ways to block on SIGINT without polling. But it's also hugely odd that this code does not read events from the X11 socket while it does so. This is code smell, and a poorly behaved X client.
I thought that Linux behaved the same, but I'm not finding any proof in `man 2 nanosleep`...
You can't find that proof because Linux does the opposite. Unless your task is SCHED_REALTIME, all timers have a little bit of slack at the end that allows the kernel to group wakeup events. You can configure this (for non-RT tasks) with prctl(PR_SET_TIMERSLACK).
https://lxr.linux.no/#linux+v6.7.1/kernel/time/hrtimer.c#L20...
https://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/PR_SET_TIMERSLACK....
In Wayland you just start a capture with the xdg-desktop-portal API and it notifies the user and let them select the area to capture.
Yes, but I believe op was refering to how interacting with all things Wayland seems to be more involved than with x11. I'm not sure this is indeed like this, I have zero experience in developing for Wayland, but I think this is what op meant.
Wayland is more focused on security. That onion layer right there will increase the complexity of usage. X11 doesn't have the extra abstractions to limit and prevent intrusive interactions with the desktop.
Example of this would be where "runas /user:smith application.exe" is simple but does not work when a Windows Service is required to run an application as the user signed in. One must use Window's API to pull in the account's token and use more API to execute "application.exe". UltraVNC is a great source to see all the extras needed.
From a quick "how do I implement this in Python" with ChatGPT it seems to be about 30 lines, since most of the heavy lifting is done for you by the API.
As someone who uses LLM's regularly to assist in code creation, take that output with a huge grain of salt until you've actually tested it. Especially as it relates to Wayland, I've pulled my hair out trying to get an LLM to assist with very similar tasks to this.
It means you got to tickle the banana, good luck making sure that the gorilla holding it is fine with that.
there's very little code because there's very little error handling / sanity checking. not saying X11 isn't hackable and cool, but a lot of code gets bloated and complex (and robust!) by not assuming perfect usage.
for example. run ./clipscreen 1 2 3 4
True. If something goes wrong this will just crash. But to be fair, the only error handling I could think of would probably just exit with a vague error message... Pull requests to make it more robust welcome anyway!
To the parent, splitbrain just got you to QA this for him. The true cost of software is the maintenance and QA, and he got you to do free work, and here I am doing free work writing about it. How hard we BOTH just got pwned! </joke>
will work for food
haha yeah, its ok for a tool its really cool honestly :p just commenting on the 'so little code' might be good to check if the x y etc. are within the screen / set resolution perhaps.
This certainly is an elegant X.org party trick that can't be done easily in almost any other windowing system: creating a virtual Xrandr display that overlaps with existing physical displays. It's slightly awkward since if it exits outside of sigint it will leave a virtual output and no overlay window but that's a pretty minor issue. (All of that having been said, I would strongly advise to not over-index on SLoC as a measure of quality or elegance.)
This flat-out can't be done in Wayland. Though all is not lost, you might not need this at all in Wayland. The standard way to capture the screen from an unprivileged process in Wayland is through desktop portals, and at least KDE supports a wide variety of different capture options including capturing a rectangle of the screen. I haven't tried, but I suspect this is even true when running X.org applications, thanks to XWaylandVideoBridge.
I am not really thrilled about D-Bus stuff everywhere, but it is nice that you can pretty much override any screen capture behavior you want by changing the org.freedesktop.impl.portal.ScreenCast implementation: I think that's actually a step in a better direction versus having every application implement its own functionality for selecting capture targets.
To me it's quite sad that for a lot of things, the "standard" way of doing something is not actually part of the standard (XDG portals, third party protocols, etc.). Yes, X.org is old, bloated, unmaintainable and whathever, but at least every desktop environment used the same X server implementation and the same tools worked everywhere.
Besides the duplication of efforts in implementing the same stuff over and over, now someone developing somewhat non-trivial programs needs to be aware of the differences in supported features and non-standard extensions in all desktops, for example [1].
[1]: https://wayland.app/protocols/cursor-shape-v1#compositor-sup...
I think Wayland had made some mistakes, no doubt. Cursor shape just should've been part of the protocol. Wayland has its fair share of misfires.
That said, I understand what they were going for. They really wanted to make the compositor as small and simple as possible, so for example you would just use libwayland-cursor instead of bothering with cursors yourself. However there are a lot of ways libwayland-cursor worked out poorly... Not everyone agreed on how scaling should work, GTK4 ditched it for performance reasons, and overall it's just inconvenient for a lot of cases (languages other than C, sandboxing, etc.) And to make matters even worse, in practice every compositor needed to load and handle XCursor themes anyways...
That said, I think that it's okay if Wayland doesn't own the majority of the Linux desktop stack the way X11 did. It's fine for compositors and their helpers to implement protocols from other projects, too. That way Wayland can be more applicable to graphical machines other than desktops without bringing unnecessary baggage. It'll always have trade-offs, of course, but I think it's far from the end of the world.
Is it much more difficult under Wayland?
Wayland intentionally makes this more difficult, because one of the security goals of the project is that (by default) Wayland clients shouldn't have visibility into other clients' window contents/events/etc.
Of course, it still needs to be possible under Wayland, because there are plenty of legitimate use-cases (screenshots, screen sharing, video capture, etc.), but it was a non-goal to make it as simple as X.
Wayland merged the image-capture-source and image-copy-capture protocol extensions earlier this year: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Wayland-Merges-Screen-Capture
> Wayland intentionally makes this more difficult,
some men just want to watch the world burn
Yeah. I mean, not to deny the decades of arguments over its warts, but it's kind of amazing to me the extent to which X11 has emerged as, well, the simplest/best and most hackable desktop graphics environment available. You want to play a trick, it's right there. The ICCCM got a ton of hate back in the early 90's, but... no one else has an equivalent and people still innovate in the WM space even today.
Hackable is right. But not always in the positive sense of the word.
I find it very interesting how much our threat model has changed in the last 10-15 years. We no longer trust even local software, as we have to assume everything is now malicious. Commercial software from "reputable" companies can't be trusted to not pull a ton of analytics and personal data off your computer. We now have to worry about every piece of software being a keylogger and spying on other windows/applications and reporting back.
We've had to give up so much flexibility. Wayland certainly focuses on plugging this hole, but it means we've lost all these cool utilities like this one. There was just so much you could do with devilspie, xdotool, and others to make sure my operating system and window environment worked for me.
I still really miss X11's Zaphod mode, where you had two independent X sessions (:0.0 and :0.1) on two different monitors, with different window managers and different windowing rules.
I miss the days of being able to trust my computer and trust my software.
If you can't trust your locally installed software, everything is lost. I understand where this new threat model comes from for some people but I'd rather continue to avoid bad software sources than hamstring my OS in the hopes of avoiding malware I installed on purpose.
I agree. But can you trust Zoom? What about Office or Photoshop? Can you trust Websites or your browser anymore? Even open source apps have analytics in them that may not be trustworthy anymore (firefox, audacity, ...).
This is why I don't run Zoom or Office or Photoshop or versions of Firefox or Audacity not distributed by Debian.
Browser sandboxes pretty heavily though of course one does want to be a bit careful there too.
I teach online for a living, and -- yep Zoom through FIREFOX only.
Coincidentally, it's also the best experience, for whatever reason it's the only on that supports virtual backgrounds on Linux for me? Neither Chrome nor Desktop seem to work for this.
> If you can't trust your locally installed software, everything is lost.
That's only true if you decide to trust it.
You can deal perfectly well with software you distrust, and not have it harm your system.
Yes. By not running it.
FWIW, the threat model you're imagining is an attacker being able to run code to display directly to the desktop using the lowest level native API. A local[1] code exploit at the level of an interactive user is already a huge failure in the modern world.
Is that a reasonable argument against using X11? Sure, for some use cases. Is it a good argument for wayland/windows/OSX/whatever to do your tiling WM experimentation? Not really, those environments kinda suck for playing around with.
[1] Or "local-ish", your system or a trusted remote has to have been compromised already. Untrusted X11 protocol still exists but is deliberately disabled (and often blocked) everywhere. Even ssh won't forward it anymore unless you dig out the option and turn it on manually.
Isn't any app that can access read the x11 socket able to read any input? It's not just running an explicitly malicious app but also the risk of compromising an app which can read the x11 socket (e.g. Firefox)
It's also why there existed more advanced security extensions for X11 (like security labels for windows), but also why even bare-bones X11 had methods to ensure that only one specific application was getting input, specifically to handle secure input like with passwords.
Yes, exactly. I'm just saying that the response to a remote browser exploit in firefox is more likely to be "YIKES ZERO DAY IN FIREFOX!!!!!" and not "well it's a good thing we're running it in windows so it can't screenshot other apps or inject key events".
It's not like it's not a valid argument, just that it's sort of a nitpick. Security is hard, and defense in depth is a thing, but this particular attack surface is way, way back in the "depth" stack for a modern app deployment.
Javascript has managed to even ruin the linux desktop. Running every random JS application sent to your browser VM makes the browser insecure which means the entire computer can't be trusted. This is the reason things like the waylands enforce a smartphone like model of security where the user's applications aren't allowed to communicate or interact with other elements of the graphical desktop. Applications aren't trusted. So the user isn't trusted. A trade-off not worth it.
Huh? What are you trying to say? There's no conflict between distrusting applications and trusting the user. Even on Android (which is pretty paranoid these days), you, the user, can still opt to trust apps with things like accessibility API access and background location.
Why exactly should we perpetuate the insecure old single-privilege-level desktop model?
X11 is the opposite of simple and hackable. What you are thinking of as "hackable" is actually the result of it having a ton of legacy features that enable users to do neat tricks.
Wayland breaks a lot of these tools because it is so much simpler than X.
By window manager started out as ~50 lines of Ruby copying an equivalent amount of C.
You can say many things about Wayland, but it's "simple" from a point of view I for one really do not care about. Wayland may be "simple" in some respects, but it makes most of the things I care about doing unnecessarily complex.
Walyand probably would have been better if wlroots had been developed as a (whatever this means) first-party “built-in” library.
Lacking features isn't the same thing as "simpler", Wayland is great, but is very much a subset of the features implemented on an X11 desktop. Wayland doesn't do selections or provide any IPC mechanism of its own, much less something like an ICCCM that allows you to identify/target other users of the desktop and interact with them in a flexible way. In fact as I understand it the linked tool is in fact impossible to write in Wayland.
Again, this isn't the fault of "Wayland", which is just a compositor framework. The complaint is that the ecosystem of "desktop" software which evolved around Wayland is an ad hoc monstrosity that lacks the unified structure that its ancestor had way back in the X11R5 days.
The most hackable would have been a Lisp based desktop.
Do I understand correctly that you could to this with OBS on any platform, including Wayland? I'm reading many comments that make me think either many people don't know about OBS, or I'm overestimating it's abilities.
It can do that, yes, but it's a bit more work. There are several GUI hoops you'll have to run through to get that to work, and if you have to adjust it each and every time, before a meeting, then it would become burdensome. But yes, it can be done.
You probably can. I never used OBS, but it's probably a bit more than a 20kb binary though ;-)
I don't understand, what is the significance of a 20kb binary? The only person using this would be someone who takes Zoom meetings on a company-issued computer and I can't imagine such machines are disk space-constrained.
I'm not aware of company issued computer with x11. Is it really a thing ?
Some companies let you run Linux on their company issued computer.
OBS lets you share a window or just the client area of an app.
With OBS, you can add an entire screen to your canvas and then add a filter to crop it down to a particular part of that screen. This nets you the same results as the small C++ tool being proposed here.
A lot more work involved, though.
Also, I remember a friend showing me in Zoom that you can share not just one but multiple screens/windows—press the SHFT key while clicking the windows you want to share.
How do people discover these things?
Isn't that the same of how you select multiple files in most file managers?
Shift+Click: select from currently selected item to clicked item
Ctrl+Click: add/remove clicked item to set of selected items
Sure, but the idea you can share multiple windows this way.
Can Google Meet (or hangout or w/e they call it now adays) do some of this?
The same question I asked (that was me after using Zoom for 3+ years).
Wow, this is fantastic! This exact use case, on Linux, is why our company selected Zoom instead of Meet.
Awesome!
Built it and took a fullscreen screenshot with GIMP to figure out the width/height/x/y coordinates I wanted and tested with Google Meet. Working perfectly!
https://github.com/naelstrof/slop Can also use a utility like this one, which lets you select an area of the screen and output it in a specified format.
Wow that is also very cool. For those wondering, this is what it looks like:
Putting the two together is easy too:
$ clipscreen $(slop -F "%x %y %w %h")
NB. The lack of quotes around $() enables wordsplitting to occur.
I think you got the size and position switched.
Or
$ clipscreen $(slop | tr -s "+x" " ")
this is just cmd+shift+5 in a Mac OS
Is it? I thought that took a screenshot, not fed coordinates to a program (in this case a screen sharing program)
Did you have any issues implementing?
Can someone explain why this is still an unmet need within the current video conference platforms? Giant monitors have become increasingly common-especially for the developers who might be working on these tools.
Maybe because a workaround with OBS isn't that difficult?
You might have missed the point being made here.
We, as engineers, can't expect everyone to know what OBS is, download it, learn in, and use it every day to enable their ability to share a sub-section of their monitor (regardless of its size.)
We, as engineers, _are_ expected to make our software easier to use and feature rich. Adding this capability into Zoom or Meet, etc. is a reasonable thing to expect from a software company of note. And people _do_ know what Zoom and Meet are, download them, learn them, and use them every day. Why not implement the feature directly into the software they're already using?
Nice. This is the first time I read about creating a virtual monitor in X.
This is surely useful right now. I wonder what will happens to all the nice X11 tools once Wayland (hopefully soon) will be the golden standard. There are options to enable X11 behaviors in Wayland but I guess that is just a fallback to the insecure implementation.
I've looking for something like this for quite sometime. It's simple, clean and elegant.
This is brilliant. I've wanted this so many times and had to awkwardly switch between window being shared instead.
I wouldn't mind switching between windows if I could use the GNOME Activities overview for that. But maybe that is not possible because there is no way to communicate the change in stream size if the windows have different sizes?
This is only helpful if you are using a desktop environment. What about window managers like i3?
I'm not sure about i3 but you can have floating windows in DWM and move them to the targeted area with the mouse
You can literally do this with just xrandr.
xrandr --setmonitor screenshare 2560/1x1440/1+0+0 none
In fairness; that and the overlay is what is happening, just from C++. Props for nice oneliner none the less. :)
I've always wanted something like this, but for i3 workspaces. Something like "share workspace 2." Anyone know how to accomplish this?
Dang. I need this for Mac. I’ve been wishing I had exactly this for years.
Wasn't the same thing posted for MacOS a few days back, can't recall the name? Looking at the time on the repo makes me think the author pushed after seeing people requesting something similar for Linux.
edit: Here you go https://github.com/Stengo/DeskPad
That's not quite the same. With DeskPad you have to move the window to the virtual monitor. clipscreen allows you to select a portion of your screen without moving any windows.
I use "Advanced Screen Share" for this purpose. it has a one time purchase if you want to remove a small overlay but it gets the job done and is installable through the app store.
you can just share multiple windows on the newest macOS and they will ne nicely arranged for viewers. You can even add the presenter thing to show your face next to them.
I was just about to go looking for something like this! I'll look so pro on the meeting tomorrow :)
I'm waiting for ffmpeg to implement pipewire screen grab so it could work on Wayland.
Can you not use std::condition_variable to avoid the active waiting of the signal?
I don't know if std::condition_variable is async-signal safe, but an easy fix is to replace the sleeping with pause(2). There's also sigwait(3), which wouldn't need a signal handler.
signalfd or ppoll or a million other options
That s very cool... Speaking of which: any easy way to allow two people, both on X, to both share and interact (keyboard and mouse) with a common X window?
The app that we d like to share and both control is a browser (running on a machine on our LAN) so a browser extension would work too I guess.
I think there was some way to do that with existing tools. I forget the details because I only threw it together as a bit of fun novelty. I think the terms to google are x2x and multiseat though, at least to start your search…
My preferred solution for that would be a VNC server (so that it shares the whole screen) installed in a VM.
Neat. Now I want for Wayland. Don’t use X11 for some years.
Never to late to upgrade to X11 :)
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As per the blog post, only Zoom allows to stream a selected area of the screen. What other proprietary SW can do this?
With this tool, they should all be able to
I'm not sure what you are referring to. What's the proprietary solution you're suggesting here?
OBS has had the ability to do this for quite some time
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