Ask HN: What breakthrough helped you build and maintain better relationships?
Pretty much just the title.
As a very small, but highly frequent example, I’ll invite an acquaintance to get a coffee or beer with me a few times but never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang.
I can’t really figure out why. Maybe I’m a boring person? Maybe I’m abrasive? Maybe most people like to stay in a perpetual state of acquaintance-ness?
How do you fix something like this if you can’t diagnose what’s wrong?
Doing hobbies that involve other people has helped me make a lot of friends- for a lot of men in particular, this is often really the only way to build friendships.
Learning how to be emotionally vulnerable is key to actually connecting with people. The book "Models" by Mark Manson is a pretty good primer on the importance of emotional vulnerability to connect with people. It is sort-of a dating advice book, but I've found it helpful for making regular friendships and connecting with my own family as well.
Another thing that is helpful is learning how to communicate assertively- which is the opposite of being emotionally manipulative. The book "When I say no I feel guilty" is particularly good introduction to assertive communication. A lot of people only learned emotionally manipulative communication, and will be avoided by almost anyone that sees that for what it is.
Counter-intuitively, not being desperate is critical. Be willing to judge if someone is worth your time, and be willing to disagree with people or say no, without letting the fear of being rejected control you. The same authenticity and vulnerability that will make people really connect with you, will also drive some people away, and that is totally fine. The goal is not to be friends with everyone, but to make good friends with people you are compatible with.
Therapy can often be helpful for developing all 3 of the above skills.
Lastly, take the initiative to make things happen. Invite someone to do activities several times before expecting them to reciprocate. People tend to be busy, shy, stressed, etc. - just because people don't reach out doesn't mean they don't like you.
This is really well said. I think the key parts you’ve identified are:
- being emotionally vulnerable (but not an emotional doormat!)
- not being desperate
I really struggled with emotional vulnerability, and this took time to get comfortable with, with many fails.
Being desperate is also tricky, because when you’re lonely you yearn to make contacts. I won’t lie, this part is hard, but working on yourself FIRST seems to be the key anecdotally.
Be the best version of yourself. When I say this, I mean the best “genuine” version. That means, genuinely caring, not desperate, not toxic, letting go of grudges, challenging insecurities and strong negative beliefs.
Note that “best you” does NOT mean “rich”, “powerful”, “hot and ripped”, “best dressed”, “most girlfriends” and “coolest car” …. lol
Some people think the above when they are younger, because our whole lives we are sold that that is what success looks like. Sure, to a very shallow world view it may be “success”.
But being happy, caring, genuine, and honest is much harder and much more related to success in my opinion.
I agree, trying to not be desperate when you are lonely can be a real catch 22. Gradually building up a strong circle of good friends is the main thing that gives social confidence and makes you non-desperate, but that is little help to someone that is lonely.
When I was younger I ended up being friends with some awful people (literally criminals in some cases), and even marrying someone that treated me badly, because I just didn't want to be alone.
Now I think there is a better solution when finding friends hard to come by- decide what is really important to you and make that a hard boundary, but be willing to tolerate other "flaws" in people that might also be having trouble making friends. For example, I won't be friends with someone that I think is a bad person, or treats others badly on purpose, but I will be friends with someone that has poor social skills or is neurodivergent in a way that makes them hard for others to be around, if I think they are still a good person, and am able to enjoy spending time with them, e.g. through a shared activity we both enjoy.
I found that essentially lowering my standards in a way compatible with my values expanded my circle of potential friends, without being "desperate" in the sense of having no boundaries like I did when I was younger.
I also agree that you get to define success for yourself based on your own values. It is a mistake to take the definition of success handed to you by society/others.
Check out Michael Puett’s The Path.
"Models" by Mark Manson was my bible in college, and I swear by it.
I especially swear by the summary at https://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2018/05/25/models-a-summ... , which I printed out and read basically every morning for a couple of months until it felt like a part of me. Changed my life, vastly for the better.
This part really resonated with me:
> Someone rejected you for not wanting kids? Imagine five years from now when they’ve worn you down and you have to wake up six times a night to feed a child you never wanted.
Someone rejected me for his _perception_ that I do not want kids. In reality, this could have been a 15-minute conversation in which we'd find out we were on the same page. But the fact that he was unwilling to bring up that concern and instead worried about it in silence, culminating in a middle-of-the-night decision to end things, is in itself evidence that he was not an appropriate person to have kids with in the first place.
It still is really sad and unfortunate to "lose" something over what feels like a miscommunication, but ultimately a favor - because with the right person, the miscommunication would have been resolved.
Not much to add to an already great comment, but I'll emphatically back the recommendation of "Models".
I read that book in my early 20s so that I could have better relationships with women, but what I got from that book were lessons on living a good and authentic life. Easily the most influential book I've ever read.
>> Doing hobbies that involve other people
This is something that doesn't really work for me. I've made a few friends through some hobbies (and we're still friends even though we don't participate in them anymore), but I think the problem is I'm not as into the hobbies as much as the other people are.
I don't want to hang out with anyone at my gym. A lot of the ____ club people are _obsessed_ with that particular thing. I have other interests than that one thing.
I find the key is being easy to talk to, and finding people who are easy to talk to.
Could you suggest some hobbies? I grew up an only child without any close friends so I learned to do everything solo at an early age.
Sports is one. I play in a regular pickup football game twice a week. I also took up golf, and now I'm older I have more time for that. That's a good social sport and can be played in coed groups.
I also do ceramics. I'm not terribly arty but it allows me to be creative. It's quite social - lots of chatter etc. I imagine the same for metal eork, painting, jewelry, glass blowing etc.
Thanks these are good ideas and fairly accessible
3 strikes and you're out.
I'm nearly 50 and an extrovert and I've found that healthy and fulfilling relations are a function of reciprocity.
I'm willing to engage with someone 3x and see if they'll reciprocate. If not, I move on--no hard feelings, just realizing it's not a mutual fit.
This rule has served me immensely well in my friends. As a result, I have nearly no loose friends--just very tight, reliable connections.
I think this is a good rule to live by that I should incorporate. I fear that energy I spend on people who just aren’t into me will leave me bitter and reluctant to spend that energy on others, which will have compounding effects as I get later into life. Giving myself a firm limit of energy spent will help ensure it persists longer.
> I’ll invite an acquaintance to get a coffee or beer with me a few times but never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang.
This is a great start! You’re already doing what most people find the hardest: making the first move.
Grabbing coffee, and even going out to dinner, aren’t good activities for making deep connections. They’re too short and too routine. They can work, it’ll just take longer, and you will have to work harder to make sure conversation is meaningful.
I think the best way to make real friendships is to go on a weekend trip somewhere together. First of all, you’re spending days together instead of hours, but more importantly, you’ll have a shared experience to remember. You get to see what someone is like not only during activities and meals, but also during downtime.
Weekend trips could be awkward if it’s just one on one though, so if you don’t have a group, the next best thing is doing an activity together. Figure out a shared interest, then invite your new friend to do something you’d both enjoy. Maybe it’s a concert, talk, hike, whatever. Do that a few times and your new friend will associate you with that activity. Next time they’re going to a concert/talk/hike or whatever, they’ll invite you to tag along.
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The difference between OP and ChatGPT is that OP is actually making insightful points.
The thing I always remind myself on this topic is from Dale Carengie's How to Win Friends and Influence People which is essentially you will make an order of magnitude more friends by being interested in other people than you will in trying to make them interested in you
This is good advice for salespeople who need to strike up a rapport in a short amount of time. Real adult friendships are far more complicated due to the time investment required to actually build a friendship.
To add to this, adult relationships are shades of shared adversity, reciprocity, vulnerability, and demonstrating reliability. Avoid transactional behavior, put yourself out there, accept losses but be present in the positive moments.
How do you maintain rapport over a long period of time? By striking it up first.
The problem is that this advice is missing one piece of crucial information - first impressions are everything.
Imagine you start a job, and you meet a coworker, who is well groomed, well spoken, and he just starts small chat with you, doing all the strategies in the book of "building you up". You would probably feel good.
Now imagine the same situation except you have a coworker who is socially awkward and speaks in a monotone voice, doesn't do small chat, and right away starts asking very probing questions. You would probably be annoyed as fuck.
I’m probably the exception rather than the rule, but I generally enjoy spending time with people who are a little more offbeat and intense much more than with people who are well put together and well presented, assuming they have something worthwhile to offer. People like that give me a sales vibe and it’s really icky, makes me feel paranoid. Plus I’d much rather have an interesting discussion about something challenging than share in tiresome pleasantries.
I CAN enjoy and get along with the other type, but it’s much more fruitful and I’m more likely to seek to spend time with those who offer something to engage with. I have very limited time so I’d prefer to spend it profitably.
But yeah, people like that can definitely be more weird, uncomfortable, and downright awkward, for sure. No doubt many in this forum can too. I try to just have patience and suppress my natural irritation for the sake of learning something, or discovering interesting things about a person I wouldn’t have otherwise. I’ve certainly committed the opposite error too, in rejecting people socially who later turned out to be pretty cool and unique despite their flaws and foibles.
But like, for the majority of folks, you definitely need to be able to hang and be comfortably normal, too. I just see that as a less profitable way to allocate my time usually.
I might be undiagnosed / high-functioning autistic spectrum though so take it with a grain of salt, but many people in tech are.
I wouldn't consider basic stuff like grooming to be "trying to get other people to be interested in you" aside from in the really strict sense (e.g. literally going outside at all is trying to get other people to be interested in you).
A pessimistic, fixed mindset take.
Always risk the relationship by revealing your thoughts.
Even those hard, messy, I don’t think you’ll like me or you’ll think I’m crazy thoughts.
“I will be truthful with you and you with me, and we will find ourselves in this knowing.
People think that intimacy is about sex. But intimacy is about truth.
When you realize you can tell someone your truth, when you can show yourself to them, when you stand in front of them and their response is “you’re safe with me” - that’s intimacy.”
— Taylor Jenkins Reid
I’m in a weird state where at 30 years old we (together with my wife) lost our whole social circle and had to start anew. It’s hard. What I realized that many people who are 30+ already have their social group they’re content with and are not interested in expanding it, at least not initially.
What we tried to do was basically inviting all our neighbors over, always being nice without trying too hard. At first some would not even say hello back. After a while we developed relationships that are not very deep yet, but we’re getting somewhere. It takes time, a lot of time.
What I would suggest is that you try many different people (neighbors, fellow parents from school, work colleagues) if one relationship doesn’t pan out. Eventually you’ll find someone with whom you will “click”. For me the best relationships I got was with the former work colleagues, we just kept in touch and hanged out after work.
I don’t have many friends. But I have very deep connections with few people, and it’s getting better as I get older. I’m still under 30. Most of my friends are nearing 50.
Anecdotally, know yourself. And make an effort. Cast your nets deep, not wide. Have morals, have ideas, have grounding principals. Principals that are malleable over time and experience. It helps to have a “North Star” in life.
I live by: Live very simply, be genuine, be honest no matter what, love deeply.
Have “strong opinions held loosely”. Don’t have shallow insights, be educated, read deeply, learn deeply.
Don’t be a sheep. That is the default most boring state in the world. It makes for boring people and interactions. Question that status quo. But don’t do it just because a person on the internet said, see how it relates to your principles.
I’ve lost a lot of friends over the years, it happens, many times was due to how I was as a person at the time.
But learning from my partner has made me a more principled person, comfortable in my own skin now.
I have a very small amount of close relationships with friends, and they are relationships not bound by time or upkeep or location.
We mostly catch up when we can a few times a year, and have deep life discussions and catching up on their life. It helps that they are genuinely some of the smartest people I’ve ever met.
I facilitate a lot of the meetups. I’ve learnt to be okay with this, I people have busy lives. Younger me used to take this personally, and think “why do I have to do everything”, but that’s just my role, and the relationships are worth the effort.
I say this from experience, most interactions with people are very shallow. I think people shy away from connections as there is a world full of potential connections. Analysis paralysis and perfection.
So you just have to be the bigger person and make the effort, but you also have to determine whether a person is worth making an effort for.
To answer that question, look for people that are:
- not materialistic; genuine; caring; kind; honest to a fault; living life
Take a lesson from alcohol (but don't drink).
Disinhibition is a social lubricant. We are so used to being safe because that's what the workplace requires, that we've lost the ability to be disinhibited around closer relationships. People who can be disinhibited and show their flaws are really attractive. But it doesn't come free, some people will reject you more. And that's ok.
Alcohol makes people just loud and foolish IMO. I like your point but I think it oversells that drug a bit. Occasionally you can have a good trip on it though.
My dad has maintained relationships very well throughout his life. He's 70 now and still has friend from high school, college, old co-workers, former bosses, former employees... he gets together with people regularly for lunch, golf, or whatever. He takes a road trip once a year and stays at several people's homes on the way down. When I was growing up it was very normal for him to run into people he knew regardless of where we were in the country.
One thing I've seen him do, which I have a real hard time with, but it seems to be successful, is he makes the effort without judging the other person.
>I’ll invite an acquaintance to get a coffee or beer with me a few times but never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang.
When my dad talks about it, he says that he recognizes people are busy and if someone doesn't reach out, things go on the back burner. Making plans isn't easy, and many people will accept plans or even want them, but have too much other stuff going on to spend the time to do it.
I'm pretty sure he schedules when he follows up with people so the ball doesn't get dropped and the relationship is maintained. Every few months I'll get a call from him asking to get together for dinner, it's completely one sided, but he never holds it against me. He knows I'm busy with work and stuff.
If people are accepting the invites you make and not making excuses, that must mean they still want to see you.
I always assume people are busy or don't want to commute. I had a friend reach out who I text with regularly, but haven't seen in 2 years. He asked if I wanted to go to a concert. I said sure, and we went. He lives 1.5 hours away. I would have never thought to ask him to go to a concern on a Wednesday that would require him to make arrangements for his kids, spend 3 hours in the car, and all that... but apparently it's something he's willing to do. Who knew...
> I’ll invite an acquaintance to get a coffee or beer
In the past I was quito often very surprised/disappointed to yield the result you describe. A lot of people have busy lives. Chances that the acquaintance would randomly invite you back are low, unless you became good friends. There's some 'uncommon magick' or chemistry involved in becoming close friends. Don't take it personally.
My advice would be basically come into contact with a lot of people, ie
- taking up a hobby where other people are involved. You already have the benefit of a common interest.
- talk AND listen to 'random' people for example in a shop while waiting, at the gym, in the waiting room of the dentist etc. People tend to like and trust people who easily talk and listen with empathy.
- hang around with people of your same age.
I'm one of the people you might invite. I'm an introvert and I don't think to include others in my plans. When I think about it now, I mostly assume they wouldn't want to.
I will accept almost every social engagement with people I like, though.
So: maybe it's not you.
When I have trouble diagnosing something, I reach into literature for clues. Your post reminded me about this paper from 2016, reading it might prove to be helpful for you.
>Are You Your Friends’ Friend? Poor Perception of Friendship Ties Limits the Ability to Promote Behavioral Change
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
Relationships - in the work setting - stem from building trust that you can do your job/deliver as promised, and how your actions impact the careers of others.
A colleague might be a fun character telling stories over a beer but also professionally useless.
If a colleague invited me out for a coffee - and we didn't really know each other in the office - I would be suspicious as to their motive.
(1) Live and Speak Honestly
(2) Be Childlike in your approach to life and relationships
(1) Honest Living
If your boring (and I don't know if you are), its probably because you stopped pursuing things that you wanted and excited you for something safe. Boring people also mask their emotions when speaking to people to avoid rejection.
To find people you genuinely connect with, you need to express yourself fully. Honest expressions will make you more polarizing, and you will experience rejection. But the people you connect with will be much deeper because they see who you actually are.
Honest living usually means some therapy or self reflection to identify the things in your life you stopped purusing. A simple litmus test: you are in a social situation and see a person you find attractive. Do you make excuses for not talking to them or go and talk to them, openly stating your interest?
(2) Childlike
Children play until they get hurt or get in trouble. Do you approach relationships with this attitude? Is your heart open to loving other people even if it hurts and they reject you?
For my specific situation, these are some profound questions and ways to frame my outlook. Thanks for your wisdom.
I think not taking it personally that somebody doesn't ring you back is a good start. People are busy, as you get older you have more responsibilities than you have time, so whatever you can eke out is for people who're already in your circles.
For gelling with new people and bringing them into your own circle, it's good to understand that it's a numbers game too. Figuring out social groups that you enjoy should always be the main goal. I have real life friends who love climbing, and we already budgeted time for climbing, so we usually hang out before or after a session and it hits all the same. Similarly, online friends who like building video games like me can sometimes spare the time to play or develop together.
Increasing your surface area in this way is a great way to start! As you get acquainted with more people, the chances that you have at least one person to hang out with at any time increases greatly, and in turn that they will want to hang out with you.
I can't speak for women, but for men it's tough to make friends.
We tend to not get personal and if you don't have deeper more meaningful conversations with someone you can't really become "friends."
I've only had a few friends my entire life and I've lost most of them.
I've found that I have to enjoy doing things with someone to foment a friendship, not just enjoy hanging out with them.
I suppose it's the time I spend with them doing stuff (activities like games or sports) that gives us the ability to be more personal, gradually
You ask directly - the very questions you outlined.
You have to risk the relationship - the very thoughts you fear, the thoughts "Oh, I could never ask that, they'll hate me."
Those thoughts. You have to voice them.
It's the only way to maintain intimacy and reveal who you truly are.
I’m currently reading this book called “Supercommunicators” and while I’m not done with it, there are some ideas there that really resonate.
One of them is that this kind of people are generally in the minds of their friends/acquaintances. And one of the reasons there is that they see them as very good listeners during conversations. They match their conversation style, they confirm what they’ve been talking about with feedback and this sort of behaviour that tend to help people build trust and friendships.
I’m not done with the book yet, but I can see many things relating to what I generally practice. And I’ve got good friends :)
Interesting, thanks for the rec. I’ll seek this book out
On the other side of this issue I started doing a couple things.
When people invited me to do things I used to hedge and say I’ll get back to them later. And if I couldn’t make it I’d just say so: as if the date and time were the issue at hand. Never even thinking of suggesting an alternate.
One day I realized it’s a big deal for some people to want to initiate a friendship and make the first step.
So now I excitedly agree to whatever they suggest and if there’s a reason I can’t make it I let them know a day later and suggest a new time.
That way they associate it with something positive and it keeps the momentum going.
My best connections are with people I’ve worked with to do big things; start business, play in a band, build homes; we built proper simpatico solving all the issues together along the way
Everyone I “socialized with”; beers, movies, games… no longer in my life.
Solving real problems builds real connection. Everything else was staring at modernist entertainment which isn’t “real”. They are transient experiences. No group skills building sitting on our collective asses staring at the circus.
1) Learning about Attachment Theory was a breakthrough; it explains everything about my behavior, relationships, and life choices. It also suggests a method for change and ongoing personal development. Here are some books on Attachment Theory:
Attached https://www.amazon.com/Attached-Science-Adult-Attachment-You...
A General Theory of Love https://www.amazon.com/General-Theory-Love-Thomas-Lewis/dp/0...
Attachment Disturbances in Adults: Treatment for Comprehensive Repair [academic/professional text] https://www.amazon.com/Attachment-Disturbances-Adults-Treatm...
2) It's harder to make friends as you get older. Most friendships are built on an ongoing shared experience that is challenging, such as being in school together. Most of my adult-onset friendships are a result of having worked in small startup companies that were struggling to survive. Casual meetings of potential friends are much less likely to generate the energy and commitment for developing a friendship. If you're interested in the research on this, look into the work of Robin Dunbar, e.g.,
Friends: Understanding the Power of our Most Important Relationships https://www.amazon.com/Friends-Robin-Dunbar/dp/1408711737/
Maybe somewhat tangential, but for maintaining relationships (close or distant) in general, the best things for me (who am still learning) have been a study of the Bible and Book of Mormon, and some things they said in our church's General Conference, which I will try to roughly quote from memory:
"Never let a task to be accomplished be more important than a person to be loved."
"The primary feeling in any interaction should be love."
"Observe and serve."
This does not mean failure to speak only truth in kindness as appropriate, or to set boundaries when necessary. I think Jesus Christ's example of understanding, truth, and kindness are ideal for us all.
Also as some have hinted here, being a good listener, asking questions, caring about others' background and well-being in general, being humble, willing to share when appropriate, and looking for the good and things to appreciate in others, and ways to serve, can go a long way. Interesting volunteering opportunities (where you would meet people as a side-effect) might be found at https://justserve.org if available in your area.
And if disagreeing, one can always say "I guess we see it differently. Maybe different assumptions or priorities. Good food for thought..." and smile and be curious about their rationale without ever being angry.
Lately I've just been seeing life and relationships as emotional combat.
Some don't like the framing, but for me it helps me realize so many things, especially that we are all going through so many conflicts at the same time and we always will be.
Maybe it's a combination of the person feeling bored and feeling a bit scared of how forward you are, or scared of getting too close. Or it could be they're super busy with work, that they are thinking of you but are afraid to ask and be rejected, they have a medical issue, or a family member does and they're treading water to stay afloat, etc.
Most likely, a combination of so many conflicting contexts and feelings going on with them and also with you.
I don't know if we can fix all the things, as new conflicts will arise, and yet for me, trying to be aware of those conflicts helps me give myself and the other person more grace.
Friendships can form when people have repeated un-planned meetings. Put yourself into such situations regularly: work at a co-working space, keep a consistent gym schedule, regularly attend several meetups, regularly attend a volunteering group, visit a coffee shop on a schedule, take public transit at the same time each day, etc. Don't let your headphones prevent random conversations with strangers.
The biggest cause of loneliness today is loss of the third-place [0] in modern communities. Suburbia is soulless and isolating because there are few third places where people can socialize and meet others.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
I scooped this idea from a book on relationships, but I don't remember which one:
When we think about relationships and who is responsible for what, we may think something like this: In a two-person relationship, each person is responsible for 50% of maintaining the relationship. Together, this adds up to 100%.
However, in this scenario, if one person is not able to live up to this, and only does 49%, and the other person is doing their share of 50%, the relationship maintenance is now at only 99% of the requirement, 1% short.
So the solution to this vulnerability, is at least one (or, ideally, both) people to assume responsibility for all 100% of the relationship maintenance. This way, if you are aiming for 100%, and you fall short, you are still likely to end up with at least 100% or more.
1. You're not a 100 dollar bill to be liked by everyone that you like. While worrying about it is in itself a repellent.
2. You may actually be full of sh.t (nobody's perfect). Only life and rarely a very close true friend can give you proper hints (or lessons which are often quite expensive, but that is what builds your character and makes you you in the end).
Sometimes group activities can be helpful. Have you tried inviting 3-5 friends to go out for drinks, go for a hike, play a sport, play cards, watch a game, etc.?
It’s less intimidating when you’re first getting to know someone if there’s a group, and then you’ll have something memorable in common in the future when you meet 1 on 1.
For finding awesome people, the BurningMan community has been the most effective for me, YMMV! For maintaining quality relationships, e.g. with my late wife, the most effective thing was studying NVC together with a small group of friends. We would take 1-2 weeks to explore each chapter of Marshall Rosenberg's "Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life" along with Lucy Leu's "Nonviolent Communication Companion Workbook". We would practicing what we were learning during the week and meet 1 evening per chapter to discuss our experience. This became an annual practice with a revolving group of participants.
Recognizing that friendships are important. It's easy when younger to take them for granted. Easy come, easy go (even when not easy come). That's profoundly mistaken. Friendships of all kinds are important and deserve a deliberate approach.
Just like any relationship, some click and some don’t.
People are busy and don’t think about others most of the time. Most live in their own world.
If they get an invite, they’ll often be happy to mix things up and meet. Then most go back to their normal routine.
Give off relaxed and breezy vibes. It’s easy to sense when someone is trying too hard. Most don’t want an another obligation in life, so they don’t want another thing they need to be bothered by. However, a friend that is casual works out better.
Amount of time between hanging out has naturally gotten further apart. Allow yourself to be okay with this aspect.
Don’t take things personally. Be your natural and genuine self.
Good luck!
Some people are just like that (I know I am sometimes). Don't take it personally.
Rather than try to change how that person responds to you, you can either work on being ok with how little they initiate, or you can put effort into other (or finding new) relationships where people will initiate more.
People also go through busy and less busy times - so maybe try again with this person in 6 months and see if things are different.
There are so many different kinds of people (with so many different preferences), that I really think your time is better spent finding new people that you click more with, rather than trying to change yourself.
Too many factors to possibly diagnose if “it’s you”, or even if there is something “to fix”.
Anecdotally, I desire to hang out with people who share my interests and want to do similar activities that we both enjoy.
I’m a few years removed from college now, and it’s highlighted to me just how special living closely with people of similar age and interest does for one’s social life. Once you spread out, gain dependents, work, etc… it’s much more of an effort to stay in touch.
Just because someone doesn’t reciprocate your effort to connect doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t want to hang out with you.
> never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang
Many people don't think twice about friendships (of any kind). It's them.
You are not their top of the list attraction (of any kind). It's you.
But then too, when you are lucky enough to find someone who really clicks with you, do ask them to critique your approach. Sadly in many cultures including the US, this is just "not done". Not considered appropriate. Even when you ask. That's so sad. No wonder we are lonely.
> but never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang
I've noticed sometimes in certain relationships it settles into one person usually doing the initiating. every relationship is different. I think it's something to do with how our personalities mesh together
> Maybe most people like to stay in a perpetual state of acquaintance-ness?
Do you actually like them? Are they interesting to talk to?
You’re definitely boring, to someone.
And you’re incredibly interesting to someone else.
The goal is to find mutually interesting matches. And most people won’t be a match. It’s a numbers game.
What is the problem? That you want someone to think of you? You want invitations to dine?
Be charismatic. (Not really in your control. But sometimes can be blundered into by being interesting based on having a certain expertise or knowledge-base.)
Be useful, then. (Can be achieved by being rich, or offering a service of some kind.)
If people feel safe or listened to or powerful or attractive when they are around you, they will flock in your direction. But be careful what you wish for.
Be resilient. Be able to bounce back from pain or discomfort. Be interested. Be helpful. Be willing to be honest in a kind way.
> Be resilient. Be able to bounce back from pain or discomfort.
That's kinda like saying "be rich". Resilience takes a lot of time and effort, and only really builds after going through adversity, with healing and processing on the other side.
Perhaps better advice: be vulnerable, and prepared to deal with some pain and discomfort as a result. Identify people in your life who can help support you through painful interactions or events along the way. Learn strategies for framing and processing adversity through books like Learned Optimism (the ABCDE model) or "The Work".
I'm far from perfect, but this helped me build resilience to handle times when I "put myself out there" and it didn't work out.
Being vulnerable builds trauma, not resilience. You could say "open yourself to discomfort", but you're actually saying "open yourself up to damage", which is only correct when you intend to be very close with the other party.
Resilience is a frame of mind and an acquired skillset. Resilience is learned, developed, and taught.
Being vulnerable only builds trauma if you're being vulnerable to damage that you aren't prepared to handle. Otherwise it's "just" adversity that you can overcome with support from close friends, family and/or a therapist, as well as what you have learned (books, courses, podcasts, lived experience etc). The former being the healing, the latter being the processing. The more adversity you overcome, the more resilient you become.
I would also say, don't rule out being a little vulnerable with people before you intend to become very close to them. Firtly, doing it in small doses at first and overcoming the damage will build some resilience before you meet someone new that you intend to be very close to. And secondly, often you won't know you want to be very close to someone until your connection with them is stronger and you know them well, and this can't happen without some vulnerability shown by both sides.
but never have this acquaintance seemingly think of me if I’m not directly asking them to hang.
Treating relationsips non-transactionally, helped me. Sure, sometimes I might feel a bit disappointed. That's a hazard of para-social thinking. Relationships have asymmetries. Hence the friendship paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox
Maybe I’m a boring person?
Well half of all people are more boring than average...But mostly adult lives are complex. You probably don't rate as highly as someone's child, partner, or established social circle. These are long term relationships. Good luck.
Playing sports with other people really helped me develop solid relationships! Can be something as easy as pickleball or something more competitive like soccer
* Go to concerts, fantastic way to break out of your shell
* Get out on the water or underwater (if you dive)
* Find events to go to in your area (pick anything, doesn't matter, if it's going on try and go do it and try and do it with people)
I would talk less about myself and ask them about their lives.
To whom in your life do you feel most grateful?
What, if anything, is too serious to be joked about?
If you had the power to change one thing about the world, what would it be?
> How do you fix something like this if you can’t diagnose what’s wrong?
You don't "fix" it, you just fine-tune your behavior models.
Make of yourself something that people need and/or want (which is often something they'll eventually outright signal that they're missing). Don't make yourself dependable, but desirable.
Empathy and compassion are fickle resources because if you are superficial about expressing them, people will notice.
Sound advice and expertise are nice but limited in scope and frequency, and require some reputation and trust building.
In most informal contexts most people are prone to oversharing to a keen ear. So become an active listener, pretend to be genuinely interested (but not necessarily empathic) about people's experiences and throw in something relatable to them on the way, pretend to be more stupid than them, grease their egos while playing an innocent contrarian, and eventually they'll think you're a great person and invite you to their secret boring, pretentious and utterly tasteless wine drinking clubs. If that's what you want then you win.
Congratulations, new skill unlocked: master manipulator. /s
The way I see it, engineering obedience or coercion is another, much wider skillset, of which engineering attention and interest is only a part. But you gotta start somewhere! :wink: /s
Thanks all! It was insightful to read your discoveries. I’m excited to look into the books and articles you shared. I appreciate all the wisdom shared.
Offering unsolicited advice is a bad habit. If you find yourself using the words “you should” a lot, reconsider making those statements.
Include that for yourself too. “I should” is often a way to shame yourself into doing a thing.
R.A.D.A.R. or structured communication. This is the idea that difficult and "we need to talk" kinds of topics should not be addressed when "hot" but when the circumstances are at their best; and that deliberate time with best circumstances should be created deliberately; and that some topics that rarely get time to be discussed should get time. This is a profound idea. ... and for me so far it has had minimal result. In part because of a partner weaponizing EVEN these deliberately perfect circumstances! Le sigh.
Trying to make convo circumstances and process perfect cannot solve mental issues or deeply ingrained habbits. Not quickly anyway, perhaps not at all. But for damn sure, it's thinking in the right direction!
I am currently wanting to apply this "even" to friendships but run into the issue that people "don't have time".
I think I have some advice for you but I should clarify something first. Do your acquaintances agree to hang out when you invite them?
Probably less than 50% of the time. So I’m in the “mostly rejected” category.
Less than 50% can be 45%.
If people agree to hang out with you 45% of the time, that's really great.
Most of my circle is busy enough that my personal rate is somewhere between 20% and 30%.
Try giving people a longer notice. Like maybe a full week instead of a couple of days. This should help them fit you into their schedule. People are just really busy these days.
It's not your fault.
Hey friend, sorry for taking so long to reply. Less than half is still really good, as the other commenter mentioned, try giving more lead time.
I think we’re kind of similar in that we are people who invite people places. That is our role. I look at this as being kind of like rbac - we have the role “organizer” which gives us access to the invite method.
If I were you, I’d stop worrying about reciprocation. Believe me, I know how hard that is because we’re kind of built to see reciprocation as success. But in this case, I worry that you’re trying to find problems that don’t exist.
Keep on inviting people out - you’re a good person, doing good work and you’re on the front lines fighting loneliness in other people. I don’t see an issue, in fact I just see a lot worth emulating.
If you ever get feedback that suggests the issue is you, feel free to write again. But I don’t see anything worth fixing, though I see a lot worth emulating.
Personally, I think this has to do with not being very good at making friends when I was younger.
Tell me about it. I have a perfect blend of being almost friendless as a kid, bullied then major friendship issues as an adult that made me not trust friends then move country and have kids, and heath issues. To boot: i am an intovert and anxious. So yeah happyish to not have friends. It feels like a monumental effort to fix that now and not a big concern ad I focus on lower maslov needs like survival.
I think among programmers (introverts) a lot of them just don't want to leave their house. They're happy sitting at home, gaming, and drinking beer. Which might account for why the interest isn't always reciprocated.
If you're someone who actually likes to go out and do things, introverts make terrible friends. The extreme extroverts I know are always doing things together, because they want to.
In my life I eventually realized that I'm a thoughtful and sensitive person in a world that generally doesn't think of others. I'm the one who reaches out first more often because I'm genuinely interested in and curious about my friends.
I think the key in this situation is to recognize when the interest isn't reciprocated. If someone consistently disrespects you or pays no attention to you then you're barking up the wrong tree and need to move on.
Ruthless grounded selection
Can you expound on this a bit? It seems that it’s realistically pursuing relationships that only seem as if they are moving in a reciprocal direction, otherwise move on as quickly as possible.
I can try! Your example is fairly generous. There are several reasons, some are less appropriate for a forum like this.
It's not so much reciprocity... but, some sort of personal investment. If I don't think someone is fully into "$thing", then I'll save the spot for someone who is. There are shades to relationships, most of mine have not been great. It's a defense mechanism - I know I'm not the target.
I don't recommend any of this, really. Just to make considerations. I'm closer with some of my coworkers than most of my family, yet I'm not that keen. Most of the time, at least. It's strange. Incredibly dynamic.
I would benefit greatly from more people like you who actually do make an effort. Yet, I'd disappoint you and feel terrible about it. I think I'm always prepared for things to go south, expecting it - perhaps causing it.
Software best practices and code reuse. Seriously.
One big impediment to maintaining friendships is staring at a screen all day, and for a techie, staring at a screen all day is often caused by some hyper perfectionistic personal project.
Saying things like "Yeah, this custom distro is cool but it's just not worth the time, I'm gonna do this the big standard way like everyone else" improved my life AND my tech projects by a lot.
Understand myself better. Know my strengths, weaknesses. Know why I tick. Which people are good for me even if difficult, know which people are easy to be around, which are hard, and why.
Not about comparison - but rather about my own tendencies. Accept things about myself I am ashamed of, whether I work on them or not.
Understand where I came from, how I got here. What I’m trying to do.
Just being comfortable with myself.
It’s hard but end of the day I realized nobody really gives a shit they’re busy trying to be comfortable with themselves lol.
Actively and deliberately maintain contact and communication. Result? Marginal. Yes, I feel it has helped but only a little, at the margin.
I’m on the receiving end of this behavior, and even if I’m probably not representative of what’s happening to you, I will bring my data point anyway.
There are quite a non-trivial number of people who reach out to me (mostly old friends/coworkers), with whom I wouldn’t want to engage. There are multiple reasons, but it fundamentally always boils down to any social interaction with them being an opportunity for them to compare themselves with me, and making me feel inferior, by explicit comments or by some sort of virtue signaling. I’m not even sure they realize it, and it’s also possible it’s just in my head. Regardless, that’s how I feel.
I am not a complete sociopath, so just declaring upfront that I do not desire to meet with them is bad taste in my morals, so I simply ruthlessly decline every single invitation, until they get the point and stop reaching out. It’s puzzling to me how sometimes a person might reach out for YEARS before giving up (on a perhaps 2-3 month basis for 2-3 years), asking for a call or to meet up, and me every time shutting them down with “I’m busy”, “I’m traveling”, etc.
Make no mistake, if I were to “cave in” and meet them up, it would immediately be an opportunity for them to flaunt their financial/marital/career/athletic success in front of me, by comparing themselves to me, so no, no pity. Example: a “friend” who made $20M from an extremely lucky IPO had the nerve to tell me “why don’t you just pick a good company that’s going to IPO soon and make a lot of money like me? A couple years and then you’re done, it’s easy”. No shit lol. This is a person who insisted for YEARS to meet up, after I started the process of declining any invitation. Fortunately he seems to have moved on now, but never say never.
Just some feedback. I consider this a normal part of catching up after a long period of time. They just don’t want you to think they’re not successful.
I just let them share some victories and once they feel they’ve impressed me enough they drop that act and the interactions normalize.
It seems surprising to me that you are saying you have this issue with a lot of people, when I find this type of behavior to be fairly rare- although I agree it can be really obnoxious when it happens. I could be wrong about this, but is it possible that you are the one doing the comparing, and not them?
Do you feel that you are doing how you want in life, or that you aren't successful enough, and feel triggered or self conscious about other people doing well in general?
For example with the person you mentioned, why don't you get involved with a high risk high reward startup? I know for me, I am a parent so my financial risk tolerance is too low for that, and I'm more driven by intellectual freedom and working on specific things I am interested in rather than trying to get rich quick. I also personally enjoy simple living, and already live exactly how I want to live- I wouldn't choose to change my lifestyle with more money in the bank, so what would be the point? It's just not something I want to do, but I don't mind if a friend does and it pays out for them!
I want all of my friends to really thrive, and don't see life as a competition or zero-sum game. If someone is doing better than me at something, that is one less thing for us as a team to worry about- and maybe it will give them the time, energy, or wisdom to also help me to thrive more. I want to hear everything I can about how well they are doing, really celebrate it with them, and will be open to advice on how I might do the same. Personally, my main hobby is sailing, and most of my sailing friends are much much wealthier than I am. This doesn't really bother me, because I made choices in life that don't really lead to that kind of wealth- based on my own priorities, but I feel I am successful based on what I actually want out of life.
I really really don't want to be a person that has a crab in the bucket mentality - so consciously aim to be someone that isn't like that, and can enjoy other peoples success.
> but is it possible that you are the one doing the comparing, and not them?
> Do you feel that you are doing how you want in life, or that you aren't successful enough, and feel triggered or self conscious about other people doing well in general?
I have asked myself these questions many times, and I do think I have been fairly exhaustive in my introspection.
I genuinely think that a good number of people who reach out to me do so purely to lift themselves up, by comparing themselves with me on certain dimensions.
I am never the person initiating extremely violating questions such as: “How much do you make? How big is your house? Which neighborhood do you live in? Do you own or rent? How much can you squat? Based on your years of experience, your net worth should be in this ballpark, am I correct?” Etc etc.
No, I do not compare myself to others, I genuinely wouldn’t want what they have, in the dimensions that they are comparing themselves with me.
Could I be a person of extreme virtue and continue interacting with these people? Of course I could, but why should I, if it makes me unhappy? I am happy not to interact with them, there is nothing I need to change.
I have several relationships that work exactly like what you described (especially family, significant other, childhood friends), and I cherish those.